From: user6340@newsgrouper.org.invalid
Mike posted:
> On 2025-12-31 16:00, Steven Douglas wrote:
> > Mike posted:
> >> On 2025-12-31 13:46, Steven Douglas wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm not claiming that the following is proof of Jesus,
> >>> but I am claiming that it is some very good evidence
> >>> of the existence of Jesus.
> >>>
> >>> There are many references to the coming Jesus in the
> >>> Old Testament, especially in the Book of Isaiah. Here
> >>> are a few examples:
> >>>
> >>> Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you
> >>> a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
> >>> and will call him Immanuel [God with us]".
> >>>
> >>> Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son
> >>> is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
> >>> And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty
> >>> God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
> >>>
> >>> Isaiah 53:5: "But He was pierced for our transgressions,
> >>> He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastisement for
> >>> our peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."
> >>>
> >>> There are other examples in other books of the Old Testament,
> >>> but this one is particularly noteworthy:
> >>>
> >>> Proverbs 30:4: "Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
> >>> Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the
> >>> waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of
> >>> the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?
> >>> Surely you know!"
> >>>
> >>> The following is from Moses, as he told the people that
> >>> there would be another prophet after him:
> >>>
> >>> Deuteronomy 18:15: "The Lord your God will raise up for
> >>> you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers —
> >>> it is to Him you shall listen."
> >>>
> >>> So those are just a few examples of the many references to
> >>> Jesus that appear in the Old Testament. During the time that
> >>> Jesus lived, and while he never left the Holy Land during
> >>> His three-year ministry, Jesus knew that the Gospel would
> >>> be preached throughout the world as the End Times approached
> >>> (as He claimed in Matthew 24:14),
> >>>
> >>> How could He have known that His ministry (conducted entirely
> >>> in one tiny part of the world) would become known throughout
> >>> the world -- unless He really is who He said he is?
> >>>
> >>> After the three-year ministry of Jesus was concluded, much
> >>> was written about Jesus in the ensuing years -- and those
> >>> writings are not confined to the Gospel accounts. There
> >>> are several high-profile secular historians who wrote about
> >>> Jesus. In doing so, they confirmed that Jesus was a real
> >>> person and a historical figure. Here are some examples:
> >>>
> >>> Tacitus, a first century Roman politician and historian
> >>> who was not friendly to Christians or Christianity. In
> >>> his writings titled "Annals", he wrote that Jesus was
> >>> executed by Pontius Pilate. Why would a Roman politician
> >>> and historian waste time writing about a supposed "myth"
> >>> (unless Jesus was real), when Rome was concerned about
> >>> the growing popularity of Christianity and wanted to
> >>> crush it?
> >>>
> >>> Pliny the Younger, a first century Roman governor (in
> >>> what is today northern Turkey), who wrote to Emperor
> >>> Trajan asking how he should deal with the growing number
> >>> of Christians. He stated his concern that they worshipped
> >>> "Christ as a god." Obviously something real was happening,
> >>> not just some random "myth".
> >>>
> >>> Suetonius, a first century Roman biographer who was also
> >>> not a friend of Christianity. He wrote about disturbances
> >>> in Rome among Jews who were divided over Jesus. The early
> >>> Christians were, of course, Jews -- as was Jesus. Suetonius
> >>> wrote that these disturbances were caused by "Chrestus"
> >>> (meaning Christ).
> >>>
> >>> And probably the best known of the secular sources who
> >>> documented the existence of Jesus is Flavius Josephus, a
> >>> first century Jewish historian who wrote about Jesus in
> >>> "Antiquities of the Jews". There are claims that some of
> >>> his writing may have been tampered with -- but what is
> >>> undisputed is that he DID write about Jesus as a historical
> >>> figure.
> >>>
> >>> There are other examples of secular historians who wrote
> >>> about Jesus, but I'll stop here for now to keep this from
> >>> getting too long. But anyone who cares to really study this
> >>> topic will soon realize that there is enough evidence of
> >>> the existence of Jesus from secular sources (in addition
> >>> to the Gospels themselves) that make it difficult to
> >>> believe that Jesus was merely a "myth".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. Old Testament “prophecies”
> >> - Isaiah 7:14 (“virgin will conceive”) uses
> >> Hebrew word *almah*, meaning “young woman,”
> >> not necessarily “virgin.”
> >
> > The word "almah" appears elsewhere in the Old Testament in
> > the context of virginity. But nevertheless, however the word
> > is translated in Isaiah 7:14, what remains is that a young
> > woman will conceive and give birth to a son who will be called
> > Immanuel (God with us).
> >>
> >> - Isaiah 53 may refer to Israel collectively, not a single
> >> messianic figure.
> >
> > He was pierced for our transgressions, along with all of
> > us being healed by his wounds. It's clearly referring to
> > the crucifixion of Jesus.
> >>
> >> - Many passages are interpreted *after the fact* to match
> >> Jesus’ life.
> >
> > Give some examples.
> >>
> >> 2. Jesus’ knowledge of worldwide ministry
> >> - Claims in Matthew 24:14 are faith-based, not independently
> >> verifiable.
> >> - Statements could have been written after Christianity spread.
> >
> > Sheesh, the Gospels were not preached worldwide when the
> > earliest transcripts of Matthew 24 were written. I am
> > constantly amazed at the lengths people (and dumb AI
> > things) will go to try to deny the obvious.
> >>
> >> 3. Secular historical evidence
> >> - Tacitus (~116 AD) mentions Christ,
> >
> > Yes, he did. That was my point.
> >>
> >> but relies on hearsay;
> >
> > So what? He was not a friend of Christianity, so would
> > he have put his reputation on the line for a "myth", or
> > would he have been fairly certain of the source of his
> > information before writing about Jesus?
> >>
> >> does not confirm Gospel details.
> >
> > He did confirm that Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.
> >>
> >> - Pliny the Younger notes Christians worship Christ, confirming
> >> Christians exist, not events in Jesus’ life.
> >
> > Ah, is this where the "myth" thing comes in? Because of
> > course many people would worship a "myth" and become
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