From: user6340@newsgrouper.org.invalid
Mike posted:
> On 2026-01-03 17:44, Steven Douglas wrote:
> >
> > First, I want to point out that the Greek word "harpazo"
> > means to seize, snatch, or carry off by force. It's that
> > Greek word that is translated into English in capital
> > letters just below (that's my highlight, just to show
> > where the word "harpazo" was used in the original Greek).
> >
> > Next, the Latin Vulgate translates "harpazo" as "rapiemur",
> > which is the basis for the word "rapture" in English. With
> > all that hopefully understood, here are the scriptures that
> > describe the coming Rapture:
> >
> > "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a
> > cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with
> > the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ
> > will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left,
> > will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to
> > meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with
> > the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
> >
> > This is backed up in the Bible by Jesus Himself, who
> > said this:
> >
> > "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so,
> > would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for
> > you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
> > again and will take you to myself, that where I am you
> > may be also." John 14:2-3
> >
> > But before we can go meet Jesus in the air, our bodies
> > must be changed. And then He will take us to that place
> > He has prepared for us in the Kingdom of God:
> >
> > "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit
> > the Kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the
> > imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not
> > all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in
> > the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
> >
> > "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
> > imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable
> > body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body
> > must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the
> > imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then
> > shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is
> > swallowed up in victory.'" 1 Corinthians 15:50
> >
> > So that's it. The Rapture is most certainly in the Bible,
> > whether anyone chooses to believe in it or not. It's in
> > the Bible, and that's what matters to me. Because the Bible
> > is the true and accurate Word of God. The Bible has proven
> > itself to be true with its 100% accuracy rating with its
> > prophecies that have already happened.
>
>
>
> REBUTTAL TO THE CLAIM THAT THE RAPTURE IS "CERTAINLY" IN THE BIBLE
>
> Word meaning does not equal doctrine
I don't care about "doctrine". I care about what the
Bible actually says.
>
> No one disputes that the Greek word "harpazo" means "to seize" or
> "catch up."
Does it dispute that the Latin Vulgate translates the word
"harpazo" as "rapiemur", which is the basis for the English
word "rapture"? Because I notice it ignored that part of my
post.
>
> The issue is not the word, but the doctrine built from it.
> The Bible never names or defines a distinct end-times event called
> "The Rapture."
The scriptures themselves mention being CAUGHT UP and
meeting Jesus in the air. What does that sound like?
>
> A word existing in Greek does not automatically prove
> a specific theological system.
The rest of the scripture proves it.
>
> 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the Second Coming, not a separate event
In the Second Coming, Jesus will be touching down in
Jerusalem. In the Rapture, we will be meeting Jesus in
the air. Those are two separate events. But even if the
Rapture is the Second Coming, so what? What difference
does that make to you? It's still about Jesus, isn't it?
>
> The passage includes:
>
> The Lord descending
But we meet Him in the air.
>
> A loud command
>
> The voice of an archangel
>
> The trumpet of God
>
> This is a public, visible event, not a secret removal of believers.
The Second Coming will certainly be a visible event,
which is described elsewhere in the Bible and not in
the scriptures I provided in my post at the top of
this thread.
>
> Paul presents one unified return of Christ, not two separate comings.
Revelation 1:7 provides an example of the Second Coming.
It's completely different from the scriptures I provided
about the Rapture at the top of this thread.
>
> John 14 is comfort language, not end-times prophecy
It's Jesus taking us out of here. When else would that
be but at the end of the age?
>
> John 14 contains no description of clouds, trumpets, resurrection,
> timing, or tribulation. Jesus is reassuring His disciples before His
> death. Reading a detailed rapture doctrine into this passage requires
> importing ideas from elsewhere.
Sheesh, what is the point of this denial? It's beyond
clear that Jesus is talking about coming and taking us
out of here, so that we may be where He is. It lines up
perfectly with the other scriptures which state that we
will meet Jesus in the air.
>
> 1 Corinthians 15 conflicts with a pre-tribulation rapture
>
> Paul says the transformation happens at "the last trumpet."
The last trumpet at the end of the age.
>
> If it is the last trumpet, it cannot occur before later prophetic
> events that also include trumpets. The passage speaks of resurrection
> and transformation, not evacuation from Earth.
Actually, it DOES tell of believers being taken to
the Kingdom of God.
>
> Early Christians did not teach a rapture doctrine
I don't care about doctrine. I care what the Bible says.
>
> For roughly 1,800 years, no major church father taught a pre-
> tribulation rapture.
My Lutheran upbringing did not teach me what the Bible
actually says. I had to figure that out for myself.
>
> The doctrine became popular in the 19th century.
I don't care about doctrine. I care what the Bible says.
>
> If it were clearly taught in Scripture, early Christians somehow
> missed it entirely.
Apparently so.
>
> "100% prophecy accuracy" is a claim, not proof
Every Bible prophecy that has already come true is
was written in advance. Every single one of them.
Do I have to start spelling them out? Because I'll
be happy to do that.
>
> Saying the Bible has a perfect prophecy record assumes disputed
> interpretations are already settled. Many prophecies are vague,
> retrospective, or interpreted differently even within Christianity.
Talk about vague. Not even an example of what the
thing is babbling about.
>
> Bottom line
>
> These verses can be assembled into a rapture theology, but they do
> not require it.
What does CAUGHT UP and meeting Jesus in the air mean
to you?
>
> Saying something is "in the Bible" is not the same as
> saying the Bible clearly teaches it.
Then what does CAUGHT UP and meeting Jesus in the air
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