From: theirony2013@gmail.com   
      
   On 2026-01-08 14:17, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >   
   > JTEM  posted:   
   >>   
   >> Fundies claim to believe in God then set themselves   
   >> above him, appointing themselves judge,   
   >   
   > Wrong. That's your false story, and just below in   
   > this post, I'll show you why you're wrong.   
   >>   
   >> pronouncing themselves "Saved" and "Born Again"   
   >   
   > I realize you don't believe the Bible, but that   
   > doesn't give you the right to falsely disparage   
   > people who DO believe in the Bible. Because the   
   > Bible does tell us how to be saved:   
   >   
   > [quoting] "Because, if you confess with your   
   > mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your   
   > heart that God raised him from the dead, you   
   > will be saved. For with the heart one believes   
   > and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses   
   > and is saved." Romans 10:9-10   
      
   Q. Mike > Why does that passage causes trouble for me?   
      
      
      
   As a general rule, the idea:   
   "Believe something deeply and publicly confess it"   
   is very bad advice.   
      
   Reasons this fails in general:   
   People can sincerely believe false things.   
   Public confession can lock someone into error.   
   It can escalate conflict or cause harm.   
   History shows disasters driven by deep conviction   
   plus loud proclamation (religious, political,   
   ideological).   
      
   Therefore:   
      
   Sincerity + proclamation does not equal truth.   
   If taken as general advice, the idea is reckless.   
   Why Paul can say this without meaning it generally   
   Paul is not explaining how to decide what is true.   
      
   He assumes one specific premise:   
   God raised Jesus from the dead.   
      
   His logic is conditional:   
   If this claim is true,   
   then belief and allegiance follow.   
      
   He is not saying:   
   "Whatever you believe strongly and say out loud   
   will save you."   
      
   Why the passage is still troubling even within Christianity   
   It favors the outspoken:   
   What about the silent, cautious, traumatized,   
   or socially constrained?   
      
   What about people in hostile environments?   
   This clashes with:   
   Traditions that value restraint.   
   Jesus’ own warnings about public piety.   
      
   It blurs belief and performance:   
   People can say words without conviction.   
   People may think they believe because they said   
   the words.   
   Confession can become social signaling.   
   Faith risks turning into verbal compliance.   
      
   It risks moral outsourcing:   
   Confession replaces responsibility.   
   Doubt becomes dangerous rather than honest.   
   Critical thinking is discouraged.   
      
   Why your discomfort is reasonable   
      
   The passage:   
   Overweights certainty.   
   Rewards declaration.   
   Undervalues humility and silence.   
      
   Your reaction is not rebellious.   
   It is philosophically consistent with skepticism   
   toward clinging to beliefs or performing certainty.   
   A more defensible (but limited) reading of Paul   
   Paul may be describing identity alignment,   
   not a method for finding truth.   
      
   "Confession" may mean allegiance under risk,   
   not mere speech.   
   "Belief" may mean trust, not certainty.   
   Even then:   
      
   It only works inside the Jesus claim.   
   It collapses as general advice.   
      
   Bottom line   
   As general advice: actively harmful.   
   As conditional advice ("if this claim is true"):   
   coherent but narrow.   
      
   Your trouble comes from recognizing how easily   
   humans confuse:   
      
   Conviction with truth.   
      
   Expression with understanding.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)