From: theirony2013@gmail.com   
      
   On 2026-01-15 23:07, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >   
   > Mike  posted:   
   >> On 2026-01-15 17:53, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >>> JTEM  posted:   
   >>>> On 1/15/26 7:33 PM, Steven Douglas wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> Some estimates are that 30 MILLION lives were saved when   
   >>>>> the Japanese leaders came to their senses and surrendered.   
   >>>>> Not that any of this information will affect your moral   
   >>>>> confusion, which I'm sure you will continue to exhibit on   
   >>>>> a regular basis.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I have a very different perspective.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The Japanese were not signers to the Geneva Convention. They   
   >>>> were opposed to the very idea of "Rules of war," and from   
   >>>> the beginning SHOCKED the allies with their cruelty. They   
   >>>> regularly enslaved, tortured and even murdered prisoners.   
   >>>> They conducted rape on an industrial scale, quite literally,   
   >>>> forcing women to serve their ranks as "Comfort Girls" i.e.   
   >>>> prostitutes. They conducted medical experiments on prisoners,   
   >>>> both military and civilian. They laced cigarettes with opium   
   >>>> for sale in their conquered territories to make them even   
   >>>> more addictive. They even employed chemical and biological   
   >>>> weapons on occasion. And, for the defense of their homeland,   
   >>>> they were mobilizing, WEAPONIZING the entire population.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Ending the war meant invading Japan and invading Japan meant   
   >>>> a war against the population. Not an army but the population,   
   >>>> because the Japanese war machine had mobilized/weaponized the   
   >>>> civilians.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The U.S. military stockpiled chemical weapons -- nerve agents,   
   >>>> I believe -- for use in the invasion BECAUSE they would not   
   >>>> be fighting an army but literally EVERYBODY. They wanted an   
   >>>> area weapon. They also had already slugged it through insane   
   >>>> battles with the Japanese held up in any hole the could dig or   
   >>>> cave they could find. Gas is a great weapon.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Oo!  The Japanese view that the lives of their own people were   
   >>>> without value also came at a price. Banzai charges, suicide   
   >>>> missiles and subs, feigning surrender to attack the soldiers   
   >>>> taking them prisoner... the wounded murdering medics trying to   
   >>>> help them... KAMIKAZE ATTACKS...   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The problem here is the mentality. After spending every waking   
   >>>> moment trying to convince your enemy that your lives are   
   >>>> absolutely worthless, your enemy starts to believe you. AND   
   >>>> THEN the allies find out that the entire population -- men,   
   >>>> women & children -- were being mobilized as suicide fighters!   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Why wouldn't you gas them?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> And once the atomic bombs were ready, why not drop them   
   >>>> instead?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Given what was going on THEN, given what the men fighting that   
   >>>> war SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES, what THEY EXPECTED TO HAPPEN TO   
   >>>> THEM, what they were going to have to do... why not just nuke   
   >>>> them?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> BUT, there was one more factor:  Stalin!   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Stalin had entered the war. The allies didn't just want Japan   
   >>>> to surrender, they wanted Japan to surrender QUICKLY, before   
   >>>> Stalin gobbled up too much of Asia for the Soviet Union. Only   
   >>>> the "Atom Bomb" offered hope for that.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I honestly have no doubt that ANYONE, or virtually anyone, who   
   >>>> lived at that time, knew what was at stake, knew how Japan had   
   >>>> conducted the war and knew what American troops could expect...   
   >>>> I don't believe that ANYONE would have said "No" to the bomb.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Anyone who claims otherwise is either mistaking their hindsight   
   >>>> for insight or is sadly misinformed.   
   >>>   
   >>> Wow, that was an excellent post. Sometimes you amaze   
   >>> me with the clarity of your opinions, and this one   
   >>> is as good as it gets. I just hope Mike is able to   
   >>> comprehend what you wrote.   
   >>   
   >> I found it fascinating too, only problem is I have no   
   >> way to validate if it's true, and I don't just trust   
   >> information and I am no expert on these subjects.   
   >   
   > It's obvious that you're no expert on this topic,   
   > but just having a halfway decent education would   
   > have informed you that the basic facts that JTEM   
   > laid out are historically accurate.   
      
   My education is mostly in Math, Physics and Computer Science.   
   Those are far more productive things to know.   
      
      
      
   >>   
   >>    
   >>   
   >> The comment mixes real historical facts with   
   >> sweeping generalizations and moral certainty.   
   >>   
   >> It is true that Imperial Japan committed   
   >> severe war crimes: mistreatment of prisoners,   
   >> forced labor, medical experimentation, mass   
   >> rape, and the coercion of women into sexual   
   >> slavery known as "comfort women." Japan had   
   >> not ratified the 1929 Geneva Convention on   
   >> POWs, though this does not excuse its conduct.   
   >> These realities hardened Allied attitudes.   
   >>   
   >> However, the argument shifts from explaining   
   >> context to justifying actions, and from   
   >> analysis to dehumanization.   
   >>   
   >> The claim that Japan "weaponized the entire   
   >> population" is exaggerated.   
   >   
   > They were in the process of doing that, no matter   
   > what CrapGPT says about it.   
      
   Are you asking me to trust you?   
   The implications are such.   
      
      
      
   >>   
   >> Civilian   
   >> mobilization plans existed late in the war,   
   >> but they were uneven, poorly equipped, and   
   >> largely symbolic. Civilians were not a   
   >> coherent suicide army.   
   >   
   > They were working on it.   
      
   You were not there. Information are not facts.   
      
      
   >>   
   >> Conflating militarist   
   >> ideology with the worth of civilian lives   
   >> reflects wartime propaganda more than fact.   
   >   
   > It was the Japanese leadership that didn't value the   
   > lives of their own citizens.   
      
   The only way you can know that is through information   
   which is likely to be biased and false. You were not   
   there as far as I know.   
      
      
      
   >>   
   >> The suggestion "Why wouldn't you gas them?"   
   >> is especially troubling. Chemical weapons   
   >> were not used,   
   >   
   > At that point, because the ground invasion didn't   
   > happen (and all the MANY MILLIONS of deaths that   
   > would have ensued) thanks to the use of the atomic   
   > bombs.   
      
   I prefer to trust ChatGPT, thanks....   
      
      
      
   >>   
   >> despite stockpiles, because   
   >> Allied leaders understood the moral and   
   >> strategic consequences. Considering an act   
   >> does not make it defensible.   
   >>   
   >> The claim that Americans universally supported   
   >> the atomic bomb is also false.   
   >   
   > JTEM didn't make that claim. The point is that the   
   > use of the bombs stopped the war, and when that   
   > happened there was far more support for having   
   > used the bombs than there is now (after years   
   > of ignorant people who no longer understand how   
   > important it was to get Japan to surrender).   
   >>   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)