XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage, sci.anthropology
XPost: alt.religion.christianity, alt.languages.english
From: a24061@ducksburg.com
On 2024-06-01, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 1/06/2024 11:22 p.m., Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 1/06/2024 10:31 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>> Ross Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/06/2024 1:54 a.m., jerryfriedman wrote:
>>>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 01:18:02 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Hayes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cult is something that people *do*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cult is not something that people or a group of people
>>>>>>>> *are*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no problem with either meaning, and consider the
>>>>>>> second one as bearing negative connotations in colluquial
>>>>>>> speech. Britannica online concurs:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> usually small group devoted to a person, idea, or
>>>>>>> philosophy. The term /cult/ is often applied to a
>>>>>>> religious movement that exists in some degree of
>>>>>>> tension with the dominant religious or cultural
>>>>>>> inclination of a society. In recent years the word
>>>>>>> cult has been most commonly used as a pejorative term
>>>>>>> for a religious group that falls outside the
>>>>>>> mainstream and, by implication, engages in
>>>>>>> questionable activities. Many new religions are
>>>>>>> controversially labeled as cults.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as do many dictionaries. I also believe this is an old
>>>>>>> meaning used by good writers.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is because of that usage that the academics want to ban all use of
>>>>>> the term.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But my Concise Oxford Dictionary has
>>>>>
>>>>>> cult n. System of religious worship; devotion, homage to person or
>>>>>> thing (the ~ of).
>>>>>
>>>>>> And I believe that there is no simple synonym to convey that meaning,
>>>>>> and that it should therefore not be banned from academic usage when
>>>>>> used in that sense, because it is not intrinsically pejorative, as it
>>>>>> tends to be when used in the other sense.
>>>>> ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'd think academics should be able to handle that. But
>>>>> "the veneration of St. George" seems to be a possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd think academics would also want the usually derogatory
>>>>> "cult of personality".
>>>
>>>> I have opined here before that whoever thus translated Russian
культа
>>>> личности made two bad choices, since both "cult" and
"personality" have
>>>>
>>>> more prominent senses in English which are inappropriate.
>>>> "Worship/veneration of an individual" would have been more accurate,
>>>> but, I guess, less snappy.
>>>
>>> The phrase already existed in English, according to the OED. I wonder
>>> whether the Russian phrase was translated from English.
>>>
>>> cult of personality: a collective obsession with, or intense,
>>> excessive, or uncritical admiration for, a particular public figure,
>>> esp. a political leader; the instigation of such an obsession; cf.
>>> personality cult n.
>>>
>>> Frequently associated with totalitarian leaders (esp. Stalin) and
>>> their idealized portrayal by means of propaganda, manipulation of
>>> the mass media, etc.
>>>
>>> 1898
>>> The Oriental voyage of his spectacular Majesty, William II.,
>>> gives the German newspapers plenty of opportunity for speculation,
>>> and incidentally offers many examples of the peculiar cult of
>>> personality indulged in by the German people.
>>> New York Times 6 November 19/7
>>>
>>> 1920
>>> In politics, as in the army and boxing, the cult of personality
>>> is in the ascendant.
>>> Observer 26 September 12/2
>>>
>>> 1933
>>> Hanfstaengl..coached [Hitler]..in the introduction of
>>> high-pressure American advertising methods. The cult of
>>> personality until then was almost unknown in German political
>>> life.
>>> Billings (Montana) Gazette 5 March 15/3
>>>
>>> 1953
>>> Such incorrect methods of work..‘often result in one-sided,
>>> poorly-devised, and..erroneous decisions,’ the editorial [in
>>> the official journal of the Cominform] added. It branded the
>>> cult of personality as ‘harmful and intolerable’ and contrary
>>> to ‘Marx Leninism’.
>>> Times 8 September 6/6
>>>
>>
>> Well, well. I had always assumed it was a Russian coinage in
>> retrospective critique of Stalin, perhaps from Khrushchev's famous 1956
>> speech. I guess that just reflects the period when I first heard it.
>>
>>
>> OED doesn't suggest a remoter origin, and the 1898 quote looks as if
>> it's already a known concept. Could be from some 19th century (German?)
>> political philosopher.
>>
>> I still think the prevalent senses of the two words create a somewhat
>> distorted understanding of the phrase among English speakers.
>
> Ha! How's this?
>
> "The term "cult of personality" likely appeared in English around
> 1800–1850, along with the French and German versions of the term. It
> initially had no political connotations, but was instead closely related
> to the Romanticist "cult of genius". The first known political use of
> the phrase appeared in a letter from Karl Marx to German political
> worker Wilhelm Blos dated to November 10, 1877:
>
> Neither of us cares a straw of popularity. Let me cite one proof of
> this: such was my aversion to the personality cult [orig.
> Personenkultus] that at the time of the International, when plagued by
> numerous moves ... to accord me public honor, I never allowed one of
> these to enter the domain of publicity ...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
>
> Their reference is to K.Heller & J.Plamper, Personality Cults in
> Stalinism/Personenkulte im Stalinismus (Göttingen, 2004).
Interesting! I did not know the term was that old.
--
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