XPost: alt.bible, alt.religion, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy   
   XPost: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, alt.christnet.christianlife   
   From: truecatholicstaff@truecarpentry.org   
      
   On 10/14/2023 9:37 AM, servant wrote:   
   > Friend james is not used to testing theories in history; such as the one   
   > below:   
   >   
   >>>>>>>>> The jw vatican dlaims the church in the first part of the 4th century   
   >>>>>>>>> changed the shape of the cross from being a pole to the familiar   
   shape with   
   >>>>>>>>> a pole having a crossbar.   
   >>   
   >>> All we need do is show strong evidence the shape of the cross was discussed   
   >>> long before the 4th century and the theory flunks.   
   >>>   
   >>>>> See if friend james refutes the evidence the above is unfounded, 2nd   
   >>> century church   
   >>>>> writers described it as a pole ith a crossbar.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Very very good, that claim is easily tested in history.  When did   
   the first   
   >>>>>>>>> writings of the shape appear?  Short answer; in the 2nd century   
   starting   
   >>>>>>>>> just after the time the NT was finished.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> 3 church fathers wrote about the exact shape,ie. a pole ith a   
   crossbar.   
   >>>>>>>>> They wrote in greek and knew exactly the word for chross used in the   
   NT as   
   >>>>>>>>> pole .   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Two of these either new John and/or was a 2nd generation disciple of   
   John.   
   >>>>>>>>> For any who might want to follow up, they were Justin Martyr,   
   Tertullian,   
   >>>>>>>>> and Irenaeus.  The last two have the connection to John.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> One of the last describes the shape of the cross like the mast of a   
   ship   
   >>>>>>>>> with crosbar to hold a sail.  The greek word in the NT also used   
   tthe greek   
   >>>>>>>>> word "pole" to mean a ship's mast and other upright wooden items.   
   >>>   
   >>> If friend james to present a credable response; he must show the above 3   
   >>> men did not write about the shape of the cross long before the 4th century.   
   >>> Any other form of response is really a concession the jw vatican's theory   
   >>> is without support.   
   > Friend james tries playing dumb:>   
   >> What does the "cross" have to do with the 4th century?   
   >   
   > Everything, the jw vatican has a theory that in part involves the church in   
   > the 4th century changing the shape of the cross; from a pole to a pole with   
   > a crossbar. That theory goes down the drain because of the early 2nd   
   > century descriptions above of the pole with a crossbar.  It was not as the   
   > jw vatican claims; the theory is dead as a dodo, no?   
      
   that is pretty funny,  a dodo.  your apostasized from the faith friend,   
   is certainly that.    The Greek, was taken not only from the latin but   
   also from the hebrew, that means, the thing was changed to a pole later   
   on from a cross, not the other way around like the dodo says.   Here, i   
   cannot do much better as it in being of somewhere else to determine some   
   of the truths, an facts, these are some in the photo style art of what   
   Italia has to offer in true art and also the buildings and what is   
   actually still there to still  be seen.  Some is of the 3rd 4th century,   
   some of it is not loading correctly, but most of it works an can be   
   seen.  YOU must have a software called frames loaded in windows, to view   
   the https files correctly or the frames will not work.  On the popups   
   when you scroll over the link, some are with the dates of the artwork,   
   this is how you can tell when it was made.  I did this myself and have   
   been to Italia myself, and some of it is actual photos using a 35mm,   
   some of it is from the Museums, some is from books that display what is   
   in the museums.  Most of it, is a showing a cross, and mostly, they were   
   serious about what they would build for God.   
      
   But its a fact, it was a cross I believe, not so much a pole, but there   
   were poles in crucifixions.  So what, if you think its a pole, ? this is   
   not what determines a heretic.  Its just an object of torture.  AND,   
   since very long ago when the Hebrew was translated, it is determined a   
   cross. The one used in Jerusalem that day.   By several theologians.   
      
      
   https://truecarpentry.org/webfolders/web6/ItaliaPaintings.htm   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)