XPost: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox, alt.politics.religion,
soc.rights.human
XPost: alt.christnet.ethics
From: hayesstw@telkomsa.net
On Sat, 08 Mar 2025 08:14:22 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
>On Mar 8, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
>(Message-ID:):
>
>> On Fri, 07 Mar 2025 18:59:52 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
>>
>> > On Mar 7, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
>> > (Message-ID:<28rmsj1rmth8p7p02nq6d9msl77cuo6lld@4ax.com>):
>> >
>> > > On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 20:39:46 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On Mar 6, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
>> > > > (Message-ID:<5boksj1imumpcjtdj7c703oficashcd5ub@4ax.com>):
>> > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 19:54:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Steve Hayes,
>> > > > > > > On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:31:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Any authority is a good from God, it's established by God.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Indeed, but when it is corrupt, its corruption is not from
God.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > It's sinful to think one can know God's will/plan in full.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Holy Scripture says clearly any authority is established by
>> > > > > > > > God, whereas a Christian's duty is to submit to authorities
>> > > > > > > > rather than "fight" against what he or she may dislike.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > St Peter and St John seem to disagree with you:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Act 4:19-29 - But Peter and John answered and said unto them,
Whether
>> > > > > > > it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than
unto
>> > > > > > > God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have
seen
>> > > > > > > and heard.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Act 5:28-29 - Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye
should
>> > > > > > > not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem
with
>> > > > > > > your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Then
>> > > > > > > Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to
obey God
>> > > > > > > rather than men.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Here "men" is generic, while "authorities" is more specific,
>> > > > > > and since an authority is a gift from God, obendience to God
>> > > > > > implies obendience to what is established by God.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > When Enver Hoxha was the ruler of Albania he gave a similar order.
>> > > > > Some did not obey it and continued to worship God. Were they thereby
>> > > > > wrongly disobeying what God had established?
>> > > >
>> > > > He banned places of worship such as mosques and churches. He did not
ban
>> > > > worshipping gods.
>> > >
>> > > Enver Hoxha banned *talking* about gods, just as those mentioned in
>> > > the book of Acts of the Apostles did to St Peter and St John. Freedom
>> > > of thought, yes. Freedom of speech, no.
>> >
>> > In the Book of Acts it was the religious leaders that ‘banned’ Peter
and
>> > John. In what way was that similar to Enver? After all, false prophets are
>> > false prophets.
>>
>> And your point is?
>
>At that time Rome was the ruler of that nation, not the High Priest and his
>crowd.
>The disciples were no longer under the Old Covenant of Law, and they, like
>the Born Again Believer of today, have Jesus the Messiah as their High
>Priest.
>
>You know, perhaps better than I, the governmental rule of that day and the
>reasons why the Romans allowed the High priests to lead the Jew according to
>their religious covenants. Even Jesus, before he wa sacrificed spoke out
>against the religious leaders for their following the traditions of men and
>placing them as equal to or above the law Covenant.
>
>According to the scriptures God sets up and or allows governing ruler
>befitting to the needs of the people, and in the case of the Israelites,
>every time they wandered away from God and would not repent, they were taken
>over by others. When they returned to Him as their God and repented, he
>restored them.
>
>The Romans ended up destroying that religious system as it was the source of
>rebellion against Rome, instead of following the God they laid claim to. Like
>some of the ‘churches’ of today, their religion turned into the
>worshipping of rites and rotes, as their hearts were not focused on God and
>establishing a relationship with Him.
>
>Christians should have learned that lesson as the Israelites were an example
>of what happens when we follow God, and or turn away to fulfill the desires
>of the flesh, and even trying to mix the two lifestyles as one, as did the
>Jew in the days of Jesus.
>
>As Oleg pointed out from scriptures, we need to fight the real enemy not the
>fleshly perceived enemy.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Enver Hoxha desired to ban thought as well as freedom of speech. Declaring
>> > that the religion of atheism was the theme of the day. Although he may not
>> > have put it in those terms, yet atheism is a belief system.
>>
>> So he, like the Jewish leaders at the time of the Apostles, was a
>> relgious leader.
>
>It might seem like that to you, but my point of him following a different
>belief system is something that he while fighting against one, he did so
>without realizing he had chosen just another belief system. Not that he was
>purposely advocating a religion.
I mat return to this later, but for now just this:
You and Oleg Smirnoff appear to be arguing that because all authority
is ultimately from God, we therefore ought to obey every command of
every authority because authority (exousia in Greek) is from God and
therefore good. So we must obey every authority in everything, no
exceptions.
But then there are exeptions, you don't have to obey Jewish
authorities because of the new covenant. But the new covenant affects
the Roman authorities too - Col 2:14-15.
Then read the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
Note his attitude to the Roman governor.
Romnas 13 says we should be subject to the authoerities, not that we
should *obey* theior every command.
Polycarp is clearly subject to the Roman governor, and respects his
authority, but he does not obey his every command.
And that is exactly in line with the attitude of Peter and John, not
obeying those who told them to stop speaking of Jesus.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
For information about why crossposting is (usually) good, and multiposting
(nearly always) bad, see:
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