XPost: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox, alt.politics.religion,
soc.rights.human
XPost: alt.christnet.ethics
From: dr.who@nunur.biz
On Mar 8, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
(Message-ID:):
> On Sat, 08 Mar 2025 08:14:22 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
>
> > On Mar 8, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > (Message-ID:):
> >
> > > On Fri, 07 Mar 2025 18:59:52 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mar 7, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > > > (Message-ID:<28rmsj1rmth8p7p02nq6d9msl77cuo6lld@4ax.com>):
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 20:39:46 -0800, Dr.Who wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mar 6, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > > > > > (Message-ID:<5boksj1imumpcjtdj7c703oficashcd5ub@4ax.com>):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 19:54:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov"
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve Hayes,
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:31:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Any authority is a good from God, it's established by
God.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, but when it is corrupt, its corruption is not
from God.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It's sinful to think one can know God's will/plan in full.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Holy Scripture says clearly any authority is established by
> > > > > > > > > > God, whereas a Christian's duty is to submit to authorities
> > > > > > > > > > rather than "fight" against what he or she may dislike.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > St Peter and St John seem to disagree with you:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Act 4:19-29 - But Peter and John answered and said unto
them, Whether
> > > > > > > > > it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more
than unto
> > > > > > > > > God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we
have seen
> > > > > > > > > and heard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Act 5:28-29 - Saying, Did not we straitly command you that
ye should
> > > > > > > > > not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled
Jerusalem with
> > > > > > > > > your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Then
> > > > > > > > > Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to
obey God
> > > > > > > > > rather than men.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here "men" is generic, while "authorities" is more specific,
> > > > > > > > and since an authority is a gift from God, obendience to God
> > > > > > > > implies obendience to what is established by God.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When Enver Hoxha was the ruler of Albania he gave a similar
order.
> > > > > > > Some did not obey it and continued to worship God. Were they
thereby
> > > > > > > wrongly disobeying what God had established?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He banned places of worship such as mosques and churches. He did
not ban
> > > > > > worshipping gods.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enver Hoxha banned *talking* about gods, just as those mentioned in
> > > > > the book of Acts of the Apostles did to St Peter and St John. Freedom
> > > > > of thought, yes. Freedom of speech, no.
> > > >
> > > > In the Book of Acts it was the religious leaders that ‘banned’
Peter
> > > > and
> > > > John. In what way was that similar to Enver? After all, false prophets
are
> > > > false prophets.
> > >
> > > And your point is?
> >
> > At that time Rome was the ruler of that nation, not the High Priest and his
> > crowd.
> > The disciples were no longer under the Old Covenant of Law, and they, like
> > the Born Again Believer of today, have Jesus the Messiah as their High
> > Priest.
> >
> > You know, perhaps better than I, the governmental rule of that day and the
> > reasons why the Romans allowed the High priests to lead the Jew according
to
> > their religious covenants. Even Jesus, before he wa sacrificed spoke out
> > against the religious leaders for their following the traditions of men and
> > placing them as equal to or above the law Covenant.
> >
> > According to the scriptures God sets up and or allows governing ruler
> > befitting to the needs of the people, and in the case of the Israelites,
> > every time they wandered away from God and would not repent, they were
taken
> > over by others. When they returned to Him as their God and repented, he
> > restored them.
> >
> > The Romans ended up destroying that religious system as it was the source
of
> > rebellion against Rome, instead of following the God they laid claim to.
> > Like
> > some of the ‘churches’ of today, their religion turned into the
> > worshipping of rites and rotes, as their hearts were not focused on God and
> > establishing a relationship with Him.
> >
> > Christians should have learned that lesson as the Israelites were an
example
> > of what happens when we follow God, and or turn away to fulfill the desires
> > of the flesh, and even trying to mix the two lifestyles as one, as did the
> > Jew in the days of Jesus.
> >
> > As Oleg pointed out from scriptures, we need to fight the real enemy not
the
> > fleshly perceived enemy.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Enver Hoxha desired to ban thought as well as freedom of speech.
Declaring
> > > > that the religion of atheism was the theme of the day. Although he may
not
> > > > have put it in those terms, yet atheism is a belief system.
> > >
> > > So he, like the Jewish leaders at the time of the Apostles, was a
> > > relgious leader.
> >
> > It might seem like that to you, but my point of him following a different
> > belief system is something that he while fighting against one, he did so
> > without realizing he had chosen just another belief system. Not that he was
> > purposely advocating a religion.
>
> I mat return to this later, but for now just this:
>
> You and Oleg Smirnoff appear to be arguing that because all authority
> is ultimately from God, we therefore ought to obey every command of
> every authority because authority (exousia in Greek) is from God and
> therefore good. So we must obey every authority in everything, no
> exceptions.
>
> But then there are exeptions, you don't have to obey Jewish
> authorities because of the new covenant. But the new covenant affects
> the Roman authorities too - Col 2:14-15.
Where in those verses do you see that it affected the Roman authorities? As I
understand it, in the context in which it was written, it is speaking of
spiritual things. Of which the Old Covenant is based, as well as the evil
spiritual powers that be. IOW’s the word of God, stands, as it always has.
[continued in next message]
--- SoupGate-DOS v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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