XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 15/08/2010 02:21, halfawake wrote:   
   > Julian wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 14/08/2010 09:14, halfawake wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 12/08/2010 18:21, DT wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> "DT"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>> news:i418a202llk@news3.newsguy.com...   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> "Julian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>> news:i40qsf$hbn$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 13:10, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 5:18 am, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 08:18, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2010 11:39, Catawumpus wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> halfawake:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is between you and your ass. Hope   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're having a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is the one Evelyn openly admitted to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when she denied she was offering a real one. Which makes   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect sense in light of all the fake accusations she's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tossed.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> They are not fake. They are real accusations but   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> unsubstantiated.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't expect anything else after the Occultists, and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> the so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> called   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Korean Zen" and Tibetanista teachers, have so profoundly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> twisted her   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> melon,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> man.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to get occult, try the assertions of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus Sutra,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> You are keen and verbose in seeking evidence with respect to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Tibetan foetid rascalities before you'll cease to deny such   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Yes, proving a negative was never my strong suit, since it is   
   >>> impossible. One doesn't take assertions that have no evidence and find   
   >>> evidence to refute it. I challenge you to find evidence that there is n   
   >>> such thing as a unicorn. Prove it. You can't. If you assert that the   
   >>> Tibetan lamas have done something you have to provide the evidence, and   
   >>> it has to be real evidence or it is pure bullshit. That won't stop you   
   >>> from saying it is true over and over again will it? Asserting things to   
   >>> exist that have no evidence is a strength of yours and other   
   >>> anti-Tibetan ideologues. You find a book with unsubstantiated assertions   
   >>> and use it as a citation, or a picture that is supposedly of skin taken   
   >>> from living people with no evidence to support it and then go on about   
   >>> it as if it were proven. And that is the worst kind of propaganda. If   
   >>> you said that Romanians skinned their babies alive I'd have the same   
   >>> reaction. I don't care if it's about Tibetans or people from Chicago.   
   >>> I'm not a fan of malicious propaganda.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> so presumeably you must have copious evidence that the Lotus   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Sutra   
   >>>>>>>>>>> is "largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking"   
   >>>>>>>>>>> and not on the assiduous practice and study of Buddhism.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Please share it.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> When I get a chance I may do that. Meanwhile, if you think that the   
   >>> whole setup of the Lotus Sutra, asserting the unending lineage of   
   >>> Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, most of them never heard of in any other   
   >>> Theravadin or Mahayana record before or after, speaking of their occult,   
   >>> magical and supernatural doings, and how the sutra itself has myriad   
   >>> magical powers, shifting the emphasis from personal enlightenment   
   >>> through understanding to the magical thinking of being graced with   
   >>> enlightenment by the mystical power of the sutra itself, is not an   
   >>> exercise in magical thinking and supernaturalism of the highest order,   
   >>> then that's fine. If you literally accept all of that on faith, then you   
   >>> are a religious worshipper, which is also fine. And if you think the   
   >>> same magical thinking that the repeated chanting of the name of the   
   >>> lotus sutra, with or without any understanding of the kind that   
   >>> characterizes the meditative tradition of Buddhism, is not an exercise   
   >>> in occultism and magical thinking, then that is fine too, but it seems   
   >>> pretty obvious that it is ordinary mantra meditation of the kind   
   >>> believed in by Hindus more than Buddhists. Go ahead and say whatever you   
   >>> like about it. I'm not even saying it doesn't work. What I am saying is   
   >>> that it is rankly hypocritical to believe in that kind of magical   
   >>> thinking and accuse Tibetan Buddhism of being overly occult! What's the   
   >>> difference?   
   >>>   
   >>> If the Lotus Sutra has great content and teaching in it,   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> If you could just spend a couple of hours reading it you might then   
   >> understand   
   >> why a host of great sages from, for instance, T'ient-t'ai to Hakuin   
   >> and beyond   
   >> hold it in such high esteem and why it is widely regarded as one of   
   >> the seminal   
   >> works of the Mahayana and even today Zen Temples across the world have it   
   >> as a central part of their curriculum and daily practice.   
   >   
   > I realize it's an important sutra. My problem has been that it is hard   
   > to get through all the pomp, regal descriptions and supernatural doings   
   > to get to the teachings. I will try to work through it more   
   > systematically. I have to admit, despite my annoyance at the idea that   
   > the sutra has magical powers, that I got a pretty intense buzz reading   
   > the later chapters earlier this evening. Maybe it really does have magic   
   > powers.   
      
   Try to forget, for a moment,  your predilection for magic,   
   and gobbledegook, :)  and take a little while to read the   
   Translators Introduction (not normally included in online versions)   
   where BW writes several pages in the section "The World of the Lotus Sutra"   
   (Translators Introduction xiii) explaining the context of the teaching,   
   the use of  dramatic language and stories etcetera.   
      
   Here http://www.scribd.com/doc/30644845/The-Lotus-Sutra-Watson-Translation   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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