XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 15/08/2010 03:14, halfawake wrote:   
   > Julian wrote:   
   >   
   >> On 14/08/2010 13:47, possum wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> "Julian" wrote in message   
   >>> news:i45tgh$787$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 14/08/2010 11:53, possum wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> "Julian" wrote in message   
   >>>>> news:i45nhs$kqe$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 14/08/2010 09:14, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 18:21, DT wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> "DT" wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>>> news:i418a202llk@news3.newsguy.com...   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> "Julian" wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> news:i40qsf$hbn$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 13:10, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 5:18 am,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 08:18, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2010 11:39, Catawumpus wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halfawake:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is between you and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ass. Hope   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're having a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is the one Evelyn   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> openly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admitted to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when she denied she was offering a real one.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which makes   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect sense in light of all the fake   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accusations she's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tossed.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are not fake. They are real accusations   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsubstantiated.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't expect anything else after the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Occultists, and the so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Korean Zen" and Tibetanista teachers, have   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> profoundly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twisted her   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> melon,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> man.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to get occult, try the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assertions of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus Sutra,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> largely based on supernaturalism and magical   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are keen and verbose in seeking evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tibetan foetid rascalities before you'll cease   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deny such   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Yes, proving a negative was never my strong suit, since   
   >>>>>>> it is   
   >>>>>>> impossible. One doesn't take assertions that have no   
   >>>>>>> evidence and find   
   >>>>>>> evidence to refute it. I challenge you to find evidence   
   >>>>>>> that there is n   
   >>>>>>> such thing as a unicorn. Prove it. You can't. If you   
   >>>>>>> assert that the   
   >>>>>>> Tibetan lamas have done something you have to provide   
   >>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>> evidence, and   
   >>>>>>> it has to be real evidence or it is pure bullshit. That   
   >>>>>>> won't stop you   
   >>>>>>> from saying it is true over and over again will it?   
   >>>>>>> Asserting things to   
   >>>>>>> exist that have no evidence is a strength of yours and   
   >>>>>>> other   
   >>>>>>> anti-Tibetan ideologues. You find a book with   
   >>>>>>> unsubstantiated assertions   
   >>>>>>> and use it as a citation, or a picture that is   
   >>>>>>> supposedly   
   >>>>>>> of skin taken   
   >>>>>>> from living people with no evidence to support it and   
   >>>>>>> then go on about   
   >>>>>>> it as if it were proven. And that is the worst kind of   
   >>>>>>> propaganda. If   
   >>>>>>> you said that Romanians skinned their babies alive I'd   
   >>>>>>> have the same   
   >>>>>>> reaction. I don't care if it's about Tibetans or people   
   >>>>>>> from Chicago.   
   >>>>>>> I'm not a fan of malicious propaganda.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so presumeably you must have copious evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the Lotus Sutra   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is "largely based on supernaturalism and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magical   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking"   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not on the assiduous practice and study of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhism.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please share it.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> When I get a chance I may do that. Meanwhile, if you   
   >>>>>>> think that the   
   >>>>>>> whole setup of the Lotus Sutra, asserting the unending   
   >>>>>>> lineage of   
   >>>>>>> Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, most of them never heard of   
   >>>>>>> in   
   >>>>>>> any other   
   >>>>>>> Theravadin or Mahayana record before or after, speaking   
   >>>>>>> of their occult,   
   >>>>>>> magical and supernatural doings, and how the sutra   
   >>>>>>> itself   
   >>>>>>> has myriad   
   >>>>>>> magical powers, shifting the emphasis from personal   
   >>>>>>> enlightenment   
   >>>>>>> through understanding to the magical thinking of being   
   >>>>>>> graced with   
   >>>>>>> enlightenment by the mystical power of the sutra   
   >>>>>>> itself,   
   >>>>>>> is not an   
   >>>>>>> exercise in magical thinking and supernaturalism of the   
   >>>>>>> highest order,   
   >>>>>>> then that's fine. If you literally accept all of that   
   >>>>>>> on   
   >>>>>>> faith, then you   
   >>>>>>> are a religious worshipper, which is also fine. And if   
   >>>>>>> you think the   
   >>>>>>> same magical thinking that the repeated chanting of the   
   >>>>>>> name of the   
   >>>>>>> lotus sutra, with or without any understanding of the   
   >>>>>>> kind that   
   >>>>>>> characterizes the meditative tradition of Buddhism, is   
   >>>>>>> not an exercise   
   >>>>>>> in occultism and magical thinking, then that is fine   
   >>>>>>> too,   
   >>>>>>> but it seems   
   >>>>>>> pretty obvious that it is ordinary mantra meditation of   
   >>>>>>> the kind   
   >>>>>>> believed in by Hindus more than Buddhists. Go ahead and   
   >>>>>>> say whatever you   
   >>>>>>> like about it. I'm not even saying it doesn't work.   
   >>>>>>> What   
   >>>>>>> I am saying is   
   >>>>>>> that it is rankly hypocritical to believe in that kind   
   >>>>>>> of   
   >>>>>>> magical   
   >>>>>>> thinking and accuse Tibetan Buddhism of being overly   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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