XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   tri cycle wrote:   
      
   > On 15/08/2010 9:18 AM, halfawake wrote:   
   >   
   >> tri cycle wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 14/08/2010 4:14 PM, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 12/08/2010 18:21, DT wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> "DT"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>> news:i418a202llk@news3.newsguy.com...   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> "Julian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>> news:i40qsf$hbn$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 13:10, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 5:18 am, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 08:18, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2010 11:39, Catawumpus wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halfawake:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is between you and your ass. Hope   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're having a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is the one Evelyn openly admitted to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when she denied she was offering a real one. Which makes   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect sense in light of all the fake accusations she's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tossed.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are not fake. They are real accusations but   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsubstantiated.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't expect anything else after the Occultists, and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the so   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> called   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Korean Zen" and Tibetanista teachers, have so profoundly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> twisted her   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> melon,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> man.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to get occult, try the assertions of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus Sutra,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> You are keen and verbose in seeking evidence with respect to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Tibetan foetid rascalities before you'll cease to deny such   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Yes, proving a negative was never my strong suit, since it is   
   >>>> impossible. One doesn't take assertions that have no evidence and find   
   >>>> evidence to refute it. I challenge you to find evidence that there is n   
   >>>> such thing as a unicorn. Prove it. You can't. If you assert that the   
   >>>> Tibetan lamas have done something you have to provide the evidence, and   
   >>>> it has to be real evidence or it is pure bullshit. That won't stop you   
   >>>> from saying it is true over and over again will it? Asserting things to   
   >>>> exist that have no evidence is a strength of yours and other   
   >>>> anti-Tibetan ideologues. You find a book with unsubstantiated   
   >>>> assertions   
   >>>> and use it as a citation, or a picture that is supposedly of skin taken   
   >>>> from living people with no evidence to support it and then go on about   
   >>>> it as if it were proven. And that is the worst kind of propaganda. If   
   >>>> you said that Romanians skinned their babies alive I'd have the same   
   >>>> reaction. I don't care if it's about Tibetans or people from Chicago.   
   >>>> I'm not a fan of malicious propaganda.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> so presumeably you must have copious evidence that the Lotus   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Sutra   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> is "largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking"   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> and not on the assiduous practice and study of Buddhism.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Please share it.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> When I get a chance I may do that. Meanwhile, if you think that the   
   >>>> whole setup of the Lotus Sutra, asserting the unending lineage of   
   >>>> Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, most of them never heard of in any other   
   >>>> Theravadin or Mahayana record before or after, speaking of their   
   >>>> occult,   
   >>>> magical and supernatural doings, and how the sutra itself has myriad   
   >>>> magical powers, shifting the emphasis from personal enlightenment   
   >>>> through understanding to the magical thinking of being graced with   
   >>>> enlightenment by the mystical power of the sutra itself, is not an   
   >>>> exercise in magical thinking and supernaturalism of the highest order,   
   >>>> then that's fine. If you literally accept all of that on faith, then   
   >>>> you   
   >>>> are a religious worshipper, which is also fine. And if you think the   
   >>>> same magical thinking that the repeated chanting of the name of the   
   >>>> lotus sutra, with or without any understanding of the kind that   
   >>>> characterizes the meditative tradition of Buddhism, is not an exercise   
   >>>> in occultism and magical thinking, then that is fine too, but it seems   
   >>>> pretty obvious that it is ordinary mantra meditation of the kind   
   >>>> believed in by Hindus more than Buddhists. Go ahead and say whatever   
   >>>> you   
   >>>> like about it. I'm not even saying it doesn't work. What I am saying is   
   >>>> that it is rankly hypocritical to believe in that kind of magical   
   >>>> thinking and accuse Tibetan Buddhism of being overly occult! What's the   
   >>>> difference?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> If the Lotus Sutra has great content and teaching in it, it is not in   
   >>>> the array of magical Buddhas and Bodhisattvas sitting on high making   
   >>>> pronouncements about the magical power of the sutra itself, which turns   
   >>>> the Buddhist teaching into a talisman or a magical object, a   
   >>>> wish-fulfilling gem, rather than an exercise in awakening.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> ps.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It is not long since you admitted that you had never read   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> the Lotus Sutra and you promised to do so...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> more vacuous verbosity I'm prepared to wager.-   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> You might try holding back from your own fountain of vacuous verbosity,   
   >>>> cheap swipes at other traditions including both Tibetan Buddhism and   
   >>>> zen, without ever getting into their content or their actual teaching.   
   >>>> If my vacuous verbosity on the Lotus and Nicherin offends you, take a   
   >>>> look at your own exercise of the same and maybe we can make a deal.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Robert   
   >>>>   
   >>>> = = = = = = = =   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> taps?   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> taps??   
   >>   
   >> robert   
   >>   
   >> - - - - - - -   
   >   
   >   
   > "You might try holding back from your own fountain of vacuous verbosity"   
   >   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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