XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com
Julian wrote:
> On 15/08/2010 02:21, halfawake wrote:
>
>> Julian wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/2010 09:14, halfawake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Julian wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/08/2010 18:21, DT wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DT" wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:i418a202llk@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Julian" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:i40qsf$hbn$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 13:10, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 5:18 am, Julian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 08:18, halfawake wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2010 11:39, Catawumpus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halfawake:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is between you and your ass. Hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're having a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fake conversation is the one Evelyn openly admitted to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when she denied she was offering a real one. Which makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect sense in light of all the fake accusations she's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tossed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are not fake. They are real accusations but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsubstantiated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't expect anything else after the Occultists, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Korean Zen" and Tibetanista teachers, have so profoundly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twisted her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> melon,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> man.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to get occult, try the assertions of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus Sutra,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You are keen and verbose in seeking evidence with respect to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tibetan foetid rascalities before you'll cease to deny such
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, proving a negative was never my strong suit, since it is
>>>> impossible. One doesn't take assertions that have no evidence and find
>>>> evidence to refute it. I challenge you to find evidence that there is n
>>>> such thing as a unicorn. Prove it. You can't. If you assert that the
>>>> Tibetan lamas have done something you have to provide the evidence, and
>>>> it has to be real evidence or it is pure bullshit. That won't stop you
>>>> from saying it is true over and over again will it? Asserting things to
>>>> exist that have no evidence is a strength of yours and other
>>>> anti-Tibetan ideologues. You find a book with unsubstantiated
>>>> assertions
>>>> and use it as a citation, or a picture that is supposedly of skin taken
>>>> from living people with no evidence to support it and then go on about
>>>> it as if it were proven. And that is the worst kind of propaganda. If
>>>> you said that Romanians skinned their babies alive I'd have the same
>>>> reaction. I don't care if it's about Tibetans or people from Chicago.
>>>> I'm not a fan of malicious propaganda.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so presumeably you must have copious evidence that the Lotus
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sutra
>>>>>>>>>>>> is "largely based on supernaturalism and magical thinking"
>>>>>>>>>>>> and not on the assiduous practice and study of Buddhism.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please share it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I get a chance I may do that. Meanwhile, if you think that the
>>>> whole setup of the Lotus Sutra, asserting the unending lineage of
>>>> Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, most of them never heard of in any other
>>>> Theravadin or Mahayana record before or after, speaking of their
>>>> occult,
>>>> magical and supernatural doings, and how the sutra itself has myriad
>>>> magical powers, shifting the emphasis from personal enlightenment
>>>> through understanding to the magical thinking of being graced with
>>>> enlightenment by the mystical power of the sutra itself, is not an
>>>> exercise in magical thinking and supernaturalism of the highest order,
>>>> then that's fine. If you literally accept all of that on faith, then
>>>> you
>>>> are a religious worshipper, which is also fine. And if you think the
>>>> same magical thinking that the repeated chanting of the name of the
>>>> lotus sutra, with or without any understanding of the kind that
>>>> characterizes the meditative tradition of Buddhism, is not an exercise
>>>> in occultism and magical thinking, then that is fine too, but it seems
>>>> pretty obvious that it is ordinary mantra meditation of the kind
>>>> believed in by Hindus more than Buddhists. Go ahead and say whatever
>>>> you
>>>> like about it. I'm not even saying it doesn't work. What I am saying is
>>>> that it is rankly hypocritical to believe in that kind of magical
>>>> thinking and accuse Tibetan Buddhism of being overly occult! What's the
>>>> difference?
>>>>
>>>> If the Lotus Sutra has great content and teaching in it,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you could just spend a couple of hours reading it you might then
>>> understand
>>> why a host of great sages from, for instance, T'ient-t'ai to Hakuin
>>> and beyond
>>> hold it in such high esteem and why it is widely regarded as one of
>>> the seminal
>>> works of the Mahayana and even today Zen Temples across the world
>>> have it
>>> as a central part of their curriculum and daily practice.
>>
>>
>> I realize it's an important sutra. My problem has been that it is hard
>> to get through all the pomp, regal descriptions and supernatural doings
>> to get to the teachings. I will try to work through it more
>> systematically. I have to admit, despite my annoyance at the idea that
>> the sutra has magical powers, that I got a pretty intense buzz reading
>> the later chapters earlier this evening. Maybe it really does have magic
>> powers.
>
>
> Try to forget, for a moment, your predilection for magic,
> and gobbledegook, :)
So I should eschew my own, but bear the Sutra's predilection for magic
and gobbledegook with a grain of Dharmic salt? Okay, will do. I'll
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