c2b2c2e5   
   XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: hollywoodlee@gmail.com   
      
   On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   > On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee  wrote:   
   >> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also questions that   
   >>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be answered   
   >>> by the mind that poses them.  This is why people who live in the mind   
   >>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always surefire certain   
   >>> about some position or other.   
   >>   
   >> Are you certain about that position?  And is it really certain and   
   >> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by the mind   
   >> that poses them?   
   >   
   > The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially   
   > putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie. objectifying   
   > them.  But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the mind   
   > has given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere thought   
   > form, and there is no real experience of that to which it points.   
      
   Or so you think.   
      
   >   
   > A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to something   
   > beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition is   
   > short circuiting the process of following what points beyond mind.   
      
   Again with the concepts and ideas.   
      
      
   >> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery over   
   >> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts instead of   
   >> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all our other   
   >> mental fashionings.   
   >   
   > Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can get a   
   > hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating concepts of   
   > it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them dissolve   
   > as mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where do they   
   > go? They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a cloud,   
   > or you can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
      
   I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to convince   
   you of this.  It's just my observation of how talk of what you admit you   
   can't talk about sounds like to me.  It seems that the sentence about   
   how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages of   
   looptyloop word salads.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)