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XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com
"Jigme Dorje" wrote in message
news:7f5d721c-349d-4720-be38-a41e798efb4e@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 17, 12:42 pm, Keynes wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:29:37 -0600, Hollywood Lee
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee wrote:
>> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>
>> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also questions that
>> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be
>> >>>> answered
>> >>>> by the mind that poses them. This is why people who live in the
>> >>>> mind
>> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always surefire certain
>> >>>> about some position or other.
>>
>> >>> Are you certain about that position? And is it really certain and
>> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by the
>> >>> mind
>> >>> that poses them?
>>
>> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially
>> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie. objectifying
>> >> them. But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the mind
>> >> has given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere thought
>> >> form, and there is no real experience of that to which it points.
>>
>> >Or so you think.
>>
>> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to something
>> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition is
>> >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond mind.
>>
>> >Again with the concepts and ideas.
>
> Just drop them.
>
>> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery over
>> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts instead of
>> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all our
>> >>> other
>> >>> mental fashionings.
>>
>> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can get a
>> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating concepts of
>> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them dissolve
>> >> as mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where do they
>> >> go? They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a cloud,
>> >> or you can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.
>>
>> >I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to convince
>> >you of this. It's just my observation of how talk of what you admit you
>> >can't talk about sounds like to me. It seems that the sentence about
>> >how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages of
>> >looptyloop word salads.
>
> I thought we were fairly in synch.
> Words are pointers. If they help, great. If not, just toss them!
> But simply because they are used differently does not mean that they
> are ineffective since, as you know,people have had deep realizations
> just by reading or hearing them.
>
>> Or in some cases, valid 'reasons' in reasonable terms
>> why knowledge (and unshakable opinions) are quite
>> pointless and unprofitable.
>>
>> But keep the faith. Hang on with hands, feet, and teeth.
>> Without the faith, why, you might even be rootless and free.
>> Then what?- Hide quoted text -
>
> There are various gateways to awareness. Words can be one of them.
> Others include watching the breath, watching the mind, feeling the
> inner body, koans, becoming aware of the gaps in perception.
For me they all are good, but the best is being out in nature.
--
Best Regards,
Evelyn
In the stony fastness of the mountains there is a strange market, where one
may barter the vortex of life for boundless bliss. - Milarepa
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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