XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: oxtail@nowhere.org   
      
   Hollywood Lee wrote:   
      
   > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee  wrote:   
   >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also questions that   
   >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be answered   
   >>>> by the mind that poses them.  This is why people who live in the mind   
   >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always surefire certain   
   >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>>   
   >>> Are you certain about that position?  And is it really certain and   
   >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by the   
   >>> mind that poses them?   
   >>   
   >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially   
   >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie. objectifying them.   
   >>  But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the mind has   
   >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere thought form,   
   >> and there is no real experience of that to which it points.   
   >   
   > Or so you think.   
   >   
   >   
   >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to something   
   >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition is   
   >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond mind.   
   >   
   > Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >   
   >   
   >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery over   
   >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts instead of   
   >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all our other   
   >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>   
   >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can get a   
   >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating concepts of   
   >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them dissolve as   
   >> mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where do they go?   
   >> They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a cloud, or you   
   >> can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >   
   > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to convince   
   > you of this.  It's just my observation of how talk of what you admit you   
   > can't talk about sounds like to me.  It seems that the sentence about   
   > how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages of   
   > looptyloop word salads.   
      
      
   I don't know much   
   but I know I don't know.   
      
   --   
   Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)