b9e4bba6
XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: oxtail@nowhere.org
Jigme Dorje wrote:
> On Aug 17, 1:52 pm, oxtail wrote:
>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
>> > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee wrote:
>> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>
>> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also questions
>> >>>> that the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be
>> >>>> answered by the mind that poses them. This is why people who live
>> >>>> in the mind are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always
>> >>>> surefire certain about some position or other.
>>
>> >>> Are you certain about that position? And is it really certain and
>> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by the
>> >>> mind that poses them?
>>
>> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially
>> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie. objectifying
>> >> them.
>> >> But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the mind has
>> >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere thought
>> >> form, and there is no real experience of that to which it points.
>>
>> > Or so you think.
>>
>> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to something
>> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition is
>> >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond mind.
>>
>> > Again with the concepts and ideas.
>>
>> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery over
>> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts instead
>> >>> of just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all our
>> >>> other mental fashionings.
>>
>> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can get
>> >> a hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating
>> >> concepts of it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps
>> >> them dissolve as mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate?
>> >> And where do they go? They either are allowed to dissipate like a
>> >> fragment of a cloud, or you can gather them up into a larger cloud
>> >> that creates havoc.
>>
>> > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to
>> > convince you of this. It's just my observation of how talk of what
>> > you admit you can't talk about sounds like to me. It seems that the
>> > sentence about how we can't talk about something is always followed
>> > by pages of looptyloop word salads.
>>
>> I don't know much
>> but I know I don't know.
>>
>
> I don't know more than you don't...
Good for you.
I don't know even more
than I think I don't know.
--
Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.
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