27db33d1   
   XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com   
      
   "Jigme Dorje"  wrote in message   
   news:0571d5a7-5055-4512-8396-bb43d6408326@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...   
   > On Aug 17, 1:12 pm, "Evelyn"  wrote:   
   >> "Jigme Dorje"  wrote in message   
   >>   
   >> news:7f5d721c-349d-4720-be38-a41e798efb4e@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> > On Aug 17, 12:42 pm, Keynes  wrote:   
   >> >> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:29:37 -0600, Hollywood Lee   
   >> >>    
   >> >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >> >> >On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >> >> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee  wrote:   
   >> >> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>   
   >> >> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also questions   
   >> >> >>>> that   
   >> >> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be   
   >> >> >>>> answered   
   >> >> >>>> by the mind that poses them.  This is why people who live in the   
   >> >> >>>> mind   
   >> >> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always surefire   
   >> >> >>>> certain   
   >> >> >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>   
   >> >> >>> Are you certain about that position?  And is it really certain and   
   >> >> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by   
   >> >> >>> the   
   >> >> >>> mind   
   >> >> >>> that poses them?   
   >>   
   >> >> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially   
   >> >> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie. objectifying   
   >> >> >> them.  But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the   
   >> >> >> mind   
   >> >> >> has given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere   
   >> >> >> thought   
   >> >> >> form, and there is no real experience of that to which it points.   
   >>   
   >> >> >Or so you think.   
   >>   
   >> >> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to something   
   >> >> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition is   
   >> >> >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond mind.   
   >>   
   >> >> >Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >>   
   >> > Just drop them.   
   >>   
   >> >> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery   
   >> >> >>> over   
   >> >> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts instead   
   >> >> >>> of   
   >> >> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all our   
   >> >> >>> other   
   >> >> >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>   
   >> >> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can   
   >> >> >> get a   
   >> >> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating concepts   
   >> >> >> of   
   >> >> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them   
   >> >> >> dissolve   
   >> >> >> as mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where do   
   >> >> >> they   
   >> >> >> go? They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a   
   >> >> >> cloud,   
   >> >> >> or you can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >>   
   >> >> >I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to   
   >> >> >convince   
   >> >> >you of this.  It's just my observation of how talk of what you admit   
   >> >> >you   
   >> >> >can't talk about sounds like to me.  It seems that the sentence about   
   >> >> >how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages of   
   >> >> >looptyloop word salads.   
   >>   
   >> > I thought we were fairly in synch.   
   >> > Words are pointers. If they help, great. If not, just toss them!   
   >> > But simply because they are used differently does not mean that they   
   >> > are ineffective since, as you know,people have had deep realizations   
   >> > just by reading or hearing them.   
   >>   
   >> >> Or in some cases, valid 'reasons' in reasonable terms   
   >> >> why knowledge (and unshakable opinions) are quite   
   >> >> pointless and unprofitable.   
   >>   
   >> >> But keep the faith. Hang on with hands, feet, and teeth.   
   >> >> Without the faith, why, you might even be rootless and free.   
   >> >> Then what?- Hide quoted text -   
   >>   
   >> > There are various gateways to awareness. Words can be one of them.   
   >> > Others include watching the breath, watching the mind, feeling the   
   >> > inner body, koans, becoming aware of the gaps in perception.   
   >>   
   >> For me they all are good, but the best is being out in nature.   
   >>   
   >> --   
   >> Best Regards,   
   >> Evelyn   
   >>   
   >> In the stony fastness of the mountains there is a strange market, where   
   >> one   
   >> may barter the vortex of life for boundless bliss.  - Milarepa- Hide   
   >> quoted text -   
   >>   
   >> - Show quoted text -   
   >   
   > Of course, I forgot that one altogether. Another one for me is   
   > annoyances.  Things that seem to annoy you give you a direct   
   > opportunity to become aware.   
      
   Only if they are REAL annoyances.   The small petty ones don't do it for me.   
   The serious ones have a way of putting it all in perspective and sending me   
   right off into the "big" picture.   
      
   --   
   Best Regards,   
   Evelyn   
      
   In the stony fastness of the mountains there is a strange market, where one   
   may barter the vortex of life for boundless bliss.  - Milarepa   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)