XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com   
      
   "niunian"  wrote in message   
   news:10cm66hrljc29g2ukm81s3eiv44hahht8b@4ax.com...   
   > On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:18:21 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>news:889m661jgq8bvokeujm71uaa1mlm2m2vng@4ax.com...   
   >>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On Aug 17, 2:36?pm, niunian  wrote:   
   >>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:14 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>> >On Aug 17, 1:52?pm, oxtail  wrote:   
   >>>>> >> Hollywood Lee wrote:   
   >>>>> >> > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>> >> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee   
   >>>>> >> >> ?wrote:   
   >>>>> >> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also   
   >>>>> >> >>>> questions   
   >>>>> >> >>>> that   
   >>>>> >> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot be   
   >>>>> >> >>>> answered   
   >>>>> >> >>>> by the mind that poses them. ?This is why people who live in   
   >>>>> >> >>>> the   
   >>>>> >> >>>> mind   
   >>>>> >> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always surefire   
   >>>>> >> >>>> certain   
   >>>>> >> >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >>> Are you certain about that position? ?And is it really certain   
   >>>>> >> >>> and   
   >>>>> >> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be answered by   
   >>>>> >> >>> the   
   >>>>> >> >>> mind that poses them?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is, essentially   
   >>>>> >> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie.   
   >>>>> >> >> objectifying   
   >>>>> >> >> them.   
   >>>>> >> >> ?But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the mind   
   >>>>> >> >> has   
   >>>>> >> >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere   
   >>>>> >> >> thought   
   >>>>> >> >> form,   
   >>>>> >> >> and there is no real experience of that to which it points.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> > Or so you think.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to   
   >>>>> >> >> something   
   >>>>> >> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a definition   
   >>>>> >> >> is   
   >>>>> >> >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond   
   >>>>> >> >> mind.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> > Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of mystery   
   >>>>> >> >>> over   
   >>>>> >> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts   
   >>>>> >> >>> instead   
   >>>>> >> >>> of   
   >>>>> >> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with all   
   >>>>> >> >>> our   
   >>>>> >> >>> other   
   >>>>> >> >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind can   
   >>>>> >> >> get a   
   >>>>> >> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating   
   >>>>> >> >> concepts of   
   >>>>> >> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them   
   >>>>> >> >> dissolve as   
   >>>>> >> >> mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where do   
   >>>>> >> >> they   
   >>>>> >> >> go?   
   >>>>> >> >> They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a cloud,   
   >>>>> >> >> or you   
   >>>>> >> >> can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going to   
   >>>>> >> > convince   
   >>>>> >> > you of this. ?It's just my observation of how talk of what you   
   >>>>> >> > admit you   
   >>>>> >> > can't talk about sounds like to me. ?It seems that the sentence   
   >>>>> >> > about   
   >>>>> >> > how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages of   
   >>>>> >> > looptyloop word salads.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> I don't know much   
   >>>>> >> but I know I don't know.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >> --   
   >>>>> >> Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.- Hide quoted   
   >>>>> >> text -   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> >I don't know more than you don't...   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Why is that a good thing?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>I don't know.   
   >>>   
   >>> Do you know you are being stupid?   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>He's not being stupid, you are because you don't understand the point of   
   >>their discussion.   
   >   
   > I curse the point of their discussion. It is a stupid point.   
      
   You don't need to pretend here, and you don't need to put others down.  Just   
   skip what you don't understand without all the criticism.    Give yourself   
   time to figure it out.   
      
   --   
   Best Regards,   
   Evelyn   
      
   In the stony fastness of the mountains there is a strange market, where one   
   may barter the vortex of life for boundless bliss.  - Milarepa   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)