XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: niunian@ymail.com   
      
   On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:21:26 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   wrote:   
      
   >   
   >"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >news:mhjo66trgb8e0cetr9aej8675tmvaodnja@4ax.com...   
   >> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:12:53 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>news:qfeo66puhi05r9trh0nk8sfg752rvf10gg@4ax.com...   
   >>>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:12:12 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>news:10cm66hrljc29g2ukm81s3eiv44hahht8b@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:18:21 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>news:889m661jgq8bvokeujm71uaa1mlm2m2vng@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>On Aug 17, 2:36?pm, niunian  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:14 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> >On Aug 17, 1:52?pm, oxtail  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> Hollywood Lee wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> questions   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> that   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously, cannot   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> be   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> by the mind that poses them. ?This is why people who live   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> in   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> surefire   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> Are you certain about that position? ?And is it really   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> and   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> by   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mind that poses them?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is,   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> essentially   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie.   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> objectifying   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> them.   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> has   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> thought   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> form,   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> and there is no real experience of that to which it points.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > Or so you think.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> something   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> definition   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> is   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> short circuiting the process of following what points beyond   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mystery   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> over   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> instead   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> of   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> all   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> our   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> other   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the mind   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> can   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> get a   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> concepts of   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps them   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> dissolve as   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> do   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> they   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> go?   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> cloud,   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> or you   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> >> can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm going   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > to   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > convince   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > you of this. ?It's just my observation of how talk of what   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > you   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > admit you   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > can't talk about sounds like to me. ?It seems that the   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > sentence   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > about   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > how we can't talk about something is always followed by pages   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > of   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> > looptyloop word salads.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> I don't know much   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> but I know I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> --   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.- Hide   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> quoted   
   >>>>>>>>>> >> text -   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> >I don't know more than you don't...   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Why is that a good thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Do you know you are being stupid?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>He's not being stupid, you are because you don't understand the point   
   >>>>>>>of   
   >>>>>>>their discussion.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> I curse the point of their discussion. It is a stupid point.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>You don't need to pretend here, and you don't need to put others down.   
   >>>>>Just   
   >>>>>skip what you don't understand without all the criticism.    Give   
   >>>>>yourself   
   >>>>>time to figure it out.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> It would be better if you practice your own advice to skip what you   
   >>>> have no clue which is what I'm doing overall in general.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>You are so obvious it is the easiest thing in the world to figure out what   
   >>>you are doing!  LOL   
   >>   
   >> As far as I can see, you are still the clueless idiot since you came   
   >> here. You have shown nothing of intelligence so far.   
   >   
   >And you have shown none either, so I am in good company.   
      
   Stay in your utter ignorance. I'm sure you have no other way.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)