XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com   
      
   "niunian"  wrote in message   
   news:7dno66df7utjq7unllrk0ta56dsp4hvn9e@4ax.com...   
   > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:21:26 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>news:mhjo66trgb8e0cetr9aej8675tmvaodnja@4ax.com...   
   >>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:12:53 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>news:qfeo66puhi05r9trh0nk8sfg752rvf10gg@4ax.com...   
   >>>>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:12:12 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>news:10cm66hrljc29g2ukm81s3eiv44hahht8b@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:18:21 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>news:889m661jgq8bvokeujm71uaa1mlm2m2vng@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>On Aug 17, 2:36?pm, niunian  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:14 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >On Aug 17, 1:52?pm, oxtail  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> Hollywood Lee wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> questions   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> that   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> cannot   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> be   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> by the mind that poses them. ?This is why people who   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> live   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> in   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> surefire   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> Are you certain about that position? ?And is it really   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> and   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> by   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mind that poses them?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> essentially   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> objectifying   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> has   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> thought   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> form,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> and there is no real experience of that to which it   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> points.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > Or so you think.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> something   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> definition   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> is   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> short circuiting the process of following what points   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> beyond   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mystery   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> over   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> instead   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> all   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> our   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> other   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> can   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> get a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> concepts of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> them   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> dissolve as   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> do   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> they   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> go?   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> cloud,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> or you   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> >> can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > going   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > convince   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > you of this. ?It's just my observation of how talk of what   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > you   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > admit you   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > can't talk about sounds like to me. ?It seems that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > sentence   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > about   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > how we can't talk about something is always followed by   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > pages   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> > looptyloop word salads.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> I don't know much   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> but I know I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> --   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.- Hide   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> quoted   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> text -   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >I don't know more than you don't...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Why is that a good thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Do you know you are being stupid?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>He's not being stupid, you are because you don't understand the   
   >>>>>>>>point   
   >>>>>>>>of   
   >>>>>>>>their discussion.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> I curse the point of their discussion. It is a stupid point.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>You don't need to pretend here, and you don't need to put others down.   
   >>>>>>Just   
   >>>>>>skip what you don't understand without all the criticism.    Give   
   >>>>>>yourself   
   >>>>>>time to figure it out.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> It would be better if you practice your own advice to skip what you   
   >>>>> have no clue which is what I'm doing overall in general.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
      
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