XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: niunian@ymail.com   
      
   On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:34:28 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   wrote:   
      
   >   
   >"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >news:7dno66df7utjq7unllrk0ta56dsp4hvn9e@4ax.com...   
   >> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:21:26 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>news:mhjo66trgb8e0cetr9aej8675tmvaodnja@4ax.com...   
   >>>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:12:53 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>news:qfeo66puhi05r9trh0nk8sfg752rvf10gg@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:12:12 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>news:10cm66hrljc29g2ukm81s3eiv44hahht8b@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:18:21 -0400, "Evelyn"    
   >>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>"niunian"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>>news:889m661jgq8bvokeujm71uaa1mlm2m2vng@4ax.com...   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>On Aug 17, 2:36?pm, niunian  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:14 -0700 (PDT), Jigme Dorje   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >On Aug 17, 1:52?pm, oxtail  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> Hollywood Lee wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > On 8/17/2010 7:05 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> On Aug 17, 8:43 am, Hollywood Lee   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> On 8/17/2010 6:25 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> I was joking about Cat, of course. But there are also   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> questions   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> that   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the mind poses about formlessness that, obviously,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> cannot   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> be   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> by the mind that poses them. ?This is why people who   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> live   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> are continuously frustrated and, conversely, always   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> surefire   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> about some position or other.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> Are you certain about that position? ?And is it really   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> certain   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> obvious that questions about formlessness cannot be   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> answered   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> by   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mind that poses them?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> The function of mind is to seek knowledge, which is,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> essentially   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> putting a label on things and accumulating them, ie.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> objectifying   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> ?But when you scratch the surface of the concept that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> has   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> given form to, it is no more than a nebulous idea, a mere   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> thought   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> form,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> and there is no real experience of that to which it   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> points.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Or so you think.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> A question like "what is formlessness" simply points to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> something   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> beyond the mind's comprehension. The mind giving it a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> definition   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> short circuiting the process of following what points   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> beyond   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Again with the concepts and ideas.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> It seems to me that these claims simply draw a veil of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mystery   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> over   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> these ideas, elevating them up as some venerated concepts   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> instead   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> just letting them go or helping dissolve them along with   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> all   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> our   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> other   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> mental fashionings.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> Ah, but the intent is just the opposite. As long as the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mind   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> can   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> get a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> hold of something, it can hoplessly muddle it up, creating   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> concepts of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> it and further confusion. As you say, letting go helps   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> them   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> dissolve as   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> mental fashionings do. Where do ideas originate? And where   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> do   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> go?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> They either are allowed to dissipate like a fragment of a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> cloud,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> or you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> can gather them up into a larger cloud that creates havoc.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > I don't mean this in a debating/critical way as if I'm   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > going   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > convince   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > you of this. ?It's just my observation of how talk of what   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > admit you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > can't talk about sounds like to me. ?It seems that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > sentence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > how we can't talk about something is always followed by   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > pages   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > looptyloop word salads.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> I don't know much   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> but I know I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> --   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> Oxtail is not doing what he thinks he is doing here.- Hide   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> quoted   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >> text -   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> >I don't know more than you don't...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Why is that a good thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>I don't know.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Do you know you are being stupid?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>He's not being stupid, you are because you don't understand the   
   >>>>>>>>>point   
   >>>>>>>>>of   
   >>>>>>>>>their discussion.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I curse the point of their discussion. It is a stupid point.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>You don't need to pretend here, and you don't need to put others down.   
   >>>>>>>Just   
   >>>>>>>skip what you don't understand without all the criticism.    Give   
   >>>>>>>yourself   
   >>>>>>>time to figure it out.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> It would be better if you practice your own advice to skip what you   
   >>>>>> have no clue which is what I'm doing overall in general.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>You are so obvious it is the easiest thing in the world to figure out   
   >>>>>what   
   >>>>>you are doing!  LOL   
   >>>>   
   >>>> As far as I can see, you are still the clueless idiot since you came   
   >>>> here. You have shown nothing of intelligence so far.   
   >>>   
      
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