XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Bodhidumba wrote:   
      
   > Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that life   
   > [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering.  Yes, there are those who   
   > say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."  but it's   
   > obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them, that's for sure.   
   > So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the only thing   
   > that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of Buddhist   
   > practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a completely   
   > awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >   
      
   There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued rebirth,   
   and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the   
   Buddhist path.  If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   possibility of establishing some other points.   
      
   What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to acknowledge   
   is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:  there is   
   what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of   
   arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which represents   
   the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the path;   
   and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it, and the   
     principles one develops and practices while alive.   
      
   This second aspect of the path is the actual path.  You don't get to   
   parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by embodying the   
   principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own   
   accumulated tendencies and temperament.  Buddha laid out a number of   
   sub-paths to follow for people in different situations.  There is the   
   straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and seclusion   
   from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this lifetime   
   to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet   
   ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily   
   engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community of men   
   and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place there   
   while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is the   
   self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the path   
   that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to other   
   good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual   
   involvement with the sangha.   No matter which of these paths you take,   
   it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes according to   
   Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the   
   meantime?  How do you conduct yourself through the many lifetimes of   
   practice?   
      
   It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners   
   that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of nibbana   
   and try to force your way into it?  What you will wind up with is a   
   forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you can stay   
   that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many   
   lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of attainment,   
   filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people through   
   forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.   
   Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies and work   
   with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get anywhere   
   near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
      
   When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness, slow down   
   and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with   
   equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path.  It may take   
   a really long time.  During this really long process filled with   
   occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is   
   extremely important.  If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana   
   comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.  Deal   
   with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that which   
   *is* what you want.  Only by following this Tangian principal   
   consistently can you get anywhere that is real.   
      
   For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they might   
   remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of deepening   
   after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of view   
   of the enlightened mastes.  You *still* have to let go and move on and   
   continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged   
   enlightened awareness.  This is repeated over and over again by the zen   
   masters.  Hui Neng had his very deep initial enlightenment experience   
   hearing a statement from the Diamond Sutra.  But he then needed to shuck   
   rice for 6 months to have his "full" enlightenment under the direction   
   of the master.  And even after that he needed 12 years in the forest   
   allowing his enlightenment to riped before he was ready to take his   
   place in the world as a teacher.  Chao Chou waited until he was in his   
   80s to start teaching.  Even the greatest of the masters need a *lot* of   
   ripening to correctly cultivate their realization.  Those who are   
   running around getting off on kensho and thinking they have nothing to   
   worry about are in danger of developing "enlightened ego" and as some   
   around here have displayed, there's nothing worse in the universe.   
      
   On the other hand, those who follow the Theravadin path through   
   suppression instead of opening with mindfulness and letting go every   
   step of the way are in danger of developing stodgy self-righteousness   
   disease disguised as enlightenment.  And that's almost as bad.  Yuck!  A   
   clue:  If you're on the right track, your enlightenment should make you   
   have more of a sense of humor and less of a sense of self-justification,   
   not the reverse.  If you've turned into a stodgy, suppressed,   
   self-righteous mental case, guess what?  You're not enlightened!  You've   
   stupefied yourself through suppression-based samadhi or developed pure   
   intellectual self-righteous understanding.  Only Tang's formula of   
   "taking what comes with a laissez-faire attitude" while still striving   
   ceaselessly for understanding, will break that prison.   
      
   In addition, the Mahayanists have the added attraction of voluntary   
   rebirths to follow the Bodhisattva path, and there is a real rift there   
   with the Theravadin view of nibbana/nirvana.  The Mahayana doctrine goes   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)