XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: bodhidumba@emptycranium.com   
      
   "halfawake"  wrote in message   
   news:i4u8c2$q1$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   > Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >   
   >> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that life   
   >> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering.  Yes, there are those   
   >> who say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."  but   
   >> it's obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them, that's   
   >> for sure. So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha   
   >> the only thing that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal   
   >> of Buddhist practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a   
   >> completely awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >>   
   >   
   > There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued rebirth,   
   > and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the   
   > Buddhist path.  If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   > possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >   
   > What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to acknowledge   
      
   ============================================   
      
      
   Hey, FWIW I'm no more of a cessationist [annihilationist / nihilist] than   
   the Buddha was, I'm just quoting him.  Don't shoot the parrot!  :-)   
      
      
   > is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:  there is what   
   > you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of arahatship which   
   > culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which represents the stepwise   
   > systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the path; and there is the   
   > path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it, and the principles one   
   > develops and practices while alive.   
   >   
   > This second aspect of the path is the actual path.  You don't get to   
   > parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by embodying the   
   > principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own accumulated   
   > tendencies and temperament.  Buddha laid out a number of sub-paths to   
   > follow for people in different situations.  There is the   
   > straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and seclusion   
   > from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this lifetime to   
   > live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet ultimately   
   > equally effective life of the householder, who happily engages in life as   
   > a Buddhist practitioner within the community of men and women, families   
   > and institutions and takes his or her place there while following a less   
   > stringent set of precepts; and there is the self-selected practitioner who   
   > takes a particular aspect of the path that fits for them, and follows it   
   > consistently until it leads to other good effects, such as meditation,   
   > good works/metta, or ritual involvement with the sangha.   No matter which   
   > of these paths you take, it will take 99% of people a myriad number of   
   > lifetimes according to Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do   
   > you do in the meantime?  How do you conduct yourself through the many   
   > lifetimes of practice?   
   >   
   > It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners   
   > that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of nibbana   
   > and try to force your way into it?  What you will wind up with is a forced   
   > samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you can stay that   
   > way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many lifetimes,   
   > with thought cut off by suppression instead of attainment, filled with   
   > spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people through forceful logic   
   > like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus. Someone who does not   
   > focus on their own "knots" and tendencies and work with themselves   
   > devotedly and patiently is not going to get anywhere near nirvana, even in   
   > a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
   >   
   > When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness, slow down   
   > and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with   
   > equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path.  It may take a   
   > really long time.  During this really long process filled with occasional   
   > insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is extremely   
   > important.  If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana comes - or what   
   > appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.  Deal with what seems   
   > *not* what you want; let go and move on from that which *is* what you   
   > want.  Only by following this Tangian principal consistently can you get   
   > anywhere that is real.   
   >   
   > For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they might   
   > remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of deepening   
   > after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of view of   
   > the enlightened mastes.  You *still* have to let go and move on and   
   > continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged enlightened   
   > awareness.  This is repeated over and over again by the zen masters.   
      
      
   Well, I certainly agree with what you're saying, Robert.  But when you say   
   above  "You *still* have to let go and move on and continue to cultivate to   
   gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged enlightened awareness", I don't think   
   Tang is at all interested in that [cultivating to gain "complete,   
   unexcelled, unimpinged enlightened awareness"].  You and I are certainly   
   interested in that, but I don't think Tang is.  Tang can correct me if I'm   
   wrong, but as you were discussing above regarding following the Noble   
   Eight-fold Path to lead eventually to attaining "complete, unexcelled,   
   unimpinged enlightened awareness" - regarding that path I think Tang would   
   simply say "don't bother. It's all made up, it's all fluff, better just   
   relax and be serene".  In fact that's exactly what he told me a while back   
   concerning my own long-time koan practice..... just don't bother with it.   
      
   I know you have some interest in koan practice yourself, Robert -- (remember   
   our discussions with Herbzet about the Who / What am I? koan around a year   
   and a half ago, back when I was 'Dork of Delusion'?).  So I'd imagine that   
   you would agree that Tang's advice to not bother with koan practice isn't   
   particularly good advice, if someone like myself or yourself has chosen to   
   take that path.  He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm really quite sure   
   Tang would give that same advice in respect to pretty much any type of   
   [Buddhist] cultivation / path, such as those you described in some detail   
   above - "....don't bother. It's all made up, it's all fluff, better just   
   relax and be serene".   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)