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   XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:   
   > On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake  wrote:   
   >> Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that life   
   >>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering.  Yes, there are those who   
   >>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."  but it's   
   >>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them, that's for   
   sure.   
   >>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the only thing   
   >>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of Buddhist   
   >>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a completely   
   >>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >>   
   >> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued rebirth,   
   >> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the   
   >> Buddhist path.  If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   >> possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >>   
   >> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to acknowledge   
   >> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:  there is   
   >> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of   
   >> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which represents   
   >> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the path;   
   >> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it, and the   
   >>    principles one develops and practices while alive.   
   >>   
   >> This second aspect of the path is the actual path.  You don't get to   
   >> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by embodying the   
   >> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own   
   >> accumulated tendencies and temperament.  Buddha laid out a number of   
   >> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations.  There is the   
   >> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and seclusion   
   >> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this lifetime   
   >> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet   
   >> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily   
   >> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community of men   
   >> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place there   
   >> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is the   
   >> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the path   
   >> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to other   
   >> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual   
   >> involvement with the sangha.   No matter which of these paths you take,   
   >> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes according to   
   >> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the   
   >> meantime?  How do you conduct yourself through the many lifetimes of   
   >> practice?   
   >>   
   >> It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners   
   >> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of nibbana   
   >> and try to force your way into it?  What you will wind up with is a   
   >> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you can stay   
   >> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many   
   >> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of attainment,   
   >> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people through   
   >> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.   
   >> Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies and work   
   >> with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get anywhere   
   >> near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
   >>   
   >> When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness, slow down   
   >> and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with   
   >> equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path.  It may take   
   >> a really long time.  During this really long process filled with   
   >> occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is   
   >> extremely important.  If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana   
   >> comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.  Deal   
   >> with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that which   
   >> *is* what you want.  Only by following this Tangian principal   
   >> consistently can you get anywhere that is real.   
   >>   
   >> For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they might   
   >> remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of deepening   
   >> after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of view   
   >> of the enlightened mastes.  You *still* have to let go and move on and   
   >> continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged   
   >> enlightened awareness.  This is repeated over and over again by the zen   
   >> masters.  Hui Neng had his very deep initial enlightenment experience   
   >> hearing a statement from the Diamond Sutra.  But he then needed to shuck   
   >> rice for 6 months to have his "full" enlightenment under the direction   
   >> of the master.  And even after that he needed 12 years in the forest   
   >> allowing his enlightenment to riped before he was ready to take his   
   >> place in the world as a teacher.  Chao Chou waited until he was in his   
   >> 80s to start teaching.  Even the greatest of the masters need a *lot* of   
   >> ripening to correctly cultivate their realization.  Those who are   
   >> running around getting off on kensho and thinking they have nothing to   
   >> worry about are in danger of developing "enlightened ego" and as some   
   >> around here have displayed, there's nothing worse in the universe.   
   >>   
   >> On the other hand, those who follow the Theravadin path through   
   >> suppression instead of opening with mindfulness and letting go every   
   >> step of the way are in danger of developing stodgy self-righteousness   
   >> disease disguised as enlightenment.  And that's almost as bad.  Yuck!  A   
   >> clue:  If you're on the right track, your enlightenment should make you   
   >> have more of a sense of humor and less of a sense of self-justification,   
   >> not the reverse.  If you've turned into a stodgy, suppressed,   
   >> self-righteous mental case, guess what?  You're not enlightened!  You've   
   >> stupefied yourself through suppression-based samadhi or developed pure   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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