XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com
"sleeper" wrote in message
news:oNSdnbXZxM5Yy-vRnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:
>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian wrote:
>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake wrote:
>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:
>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that life
>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering. Yes, there are
>>>>>> those who
>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..." but
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them, that's
>>>>>> for sure.
>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the only
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of
>>>>>> Buddhist
>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.
>>>
>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued
>>>>> rebirth,
>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the
>>>>> Buddhist path. If we can just check that box, there may be some
>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.
>>>
>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to
>>>>> acknowledge
>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path: there is
>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of
>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which
>>>>> represents
>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the path;
>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it, and
>>>>> the
>>>>> principles one develops and practices while alive.
>>>
>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path. You don't get to
>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by embodying
>>>>> the
>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own
>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament. Buddha laid out a number of
>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations. There is the
>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and seclusion
>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this
>>>>> lifetime
>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet
>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily
>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community of men
>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place there
>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is the
>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the path
>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to
>>>>> other
>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual
>>>>> involvement with the sangha. No matter which of these paths you
>>>>> take,
>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes according to
>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the
>>>>> meantime? How do you conduct yourself through the many lifetimes of
>>>>> practice?
>>>
>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners
>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of
>>>>> nibbana
>>>>> and try to force your way into it? What you will wind up with is a
>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you can
>>>>> stay
>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many
>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of attainment,
>>>>> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people through
>>>>> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.
>>>>> Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies and
>>>>> work
>>>>> with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get anywhere
>>>>> near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.
>>>
>>>>> When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness, slow
>>>>> down
>>>>> and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with
>>>>> equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path. It may
>>>>> take
>>>>> a really long time. During this really long process filled with
>>>>> occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is
>>>>> extremely important. If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana
>>>>> comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it. Deal
>>>>> with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that
>>>>> which
>>>>> *is* what you want. Only by following this Tangian principal
>>>>> consistently can you get anywhere that is real.
>>>
>>>>> For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they
>>>>> might
>>>>> remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of
>>>>> deepening
>>>>> after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of view
>>>>> of the enlightened mastes. You *still* have to let go and move on and
>>>>> continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged
>>>>> enlightened awareness. This is repeated over and over again by the
>>>>> zen
>>>>> masters. Hui Neng had his very deep initial enlightenment experience
>>>>> hearing a statement from the Diamond Sutra. But he then needed to
>>>>> shuck
>>>>> rice for 6 months to have his "full" enlightenment under the direction
>>>>> of the master. And even after that he needed 12 years in the forest
>>>>> allowing his enlightenment to riped before he was ready to take his
>>>>> place in the world as a teacher. Chao Chou waited until he was in his
>>>>> 80s to start teaching. Even the greatest of the masters need a *lot*
>>>>> of
>>>>> ripening to correctly cultivate their realization. Those who are
>>>>> running around getting off on kensho and thinking they have nothing to
>>>>> worry about are in danger of developing "enlightened ego" and as some
>>>>> around here have displayed, there's nothing worse in the universe.
>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, those who follow the Theravadin path through
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