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   XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 27/08/2010 01:57, Awaken21 wrote:   
   > On Aug 26, 7:57 am, sleeper  wrote:   
   >> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian    wrote:   
   >>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake      wrote:   
   >>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that life   
   >>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering.  Yes, there are   
   those who   
   >>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."  but   
   it's   
   >>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them, that's for   
   sure.   
   >>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the only   
   thing   
   >>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of Buddhist   
   >>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a   
   completely   
   >>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued rebirth,   
   >>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the   
   >>>>>> Buddhist path.  If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   >>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to acknowledge   
   >>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:  there is   
   >>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of   
   >>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which represents   
   >>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the path;   
   >>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it, and the   
   >>>>>>      principles one develops and practices while alive.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path.  You don't get to   
   >>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by embodying the   
   >>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own   
   >>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament.  Buddha laid out a number of   
   >>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations.  There is the   
   >>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and seclusion   
   >>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this lifetime   
   >>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet   
   >>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily   
   >>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community of men   
   >>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place there   
   >>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is the   
   >>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the path   
   >>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to other   
   >>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual   
   >>>>>> involvement with the sangha.   No matter which of these paths you take,   
   >>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes according to   
   >>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the   
   >>>>>> meantime?  How do you conduct yourself through the many lifetimes of   
   >>>>>> practice?   
   >>   
   >>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners   
   >>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of nibbana   
   >>>>>> and try to force your way into it?  What you will wind up with is a   
   >>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you can stay   
   >>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many   
   >>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of attainment,   
   >>>>>> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people through   
   >>>>>> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.   
   >>>>>> Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies and work   
   >>>>>> with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get anywhere   
   >>>>>> near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness, slow down   
   >>>>>> and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with   
   >>>>>> equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path.  It may take   
   >>>>>> a really long time.  During this really long process filled with   
   >>>>>> occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is   
   >>>>>> extremely important.  If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana   
   >>>>>> comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.  Deal   
   >>>>>> with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that which   
   >>>>>> *is* what you want.  Only by following this Tangian principal   
   >>>>>> consistently can you get anywhere that is real.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they might   
   >>>>>> remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of deepening   
   >>>>>> after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of view   
   >>>>>> of the enlightened mastes.  You *still* have to let go and move on and   
   >>>>>> continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged   
   >>>>>> enlightened awareness.  This is repeated over and over again by the zen   
   >>>>>> masters.  Hui Neng had his very deep initial enlightenment experience   
   >>>>>> hearing a statement from the Diamond Sutra.  But he then needed to shuck   
   >>>>>> rice for 6 months to have his "full" enlightenment under the direction   
   >>>>>> of the master.  And even after that he needed 12 years in the forest   
   >>>>>> allowing his enlightenment to riped before he was ready to take his   
   >>>>>> place in the world as a teacher.  Chao Chou waited until he was in his   
   >>>>>> 80s to start teaching.  Even the greatest of the masters need a *lot* of   
   >>>>>> ripening to correctly cultivate their realization.  Those who are   
   >>>>>> running around getting off on kensho and thinking they have nothing to   
   >>>>>> worry about are in danger of developing "enlightened ego" and as some   
   >>>>>> around here have displayed, there's nothing worse in the universe.   
   >>   
   >>>>>> On the other hand, those who follow the Theravadin path through   
      
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