XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 27/08/2010 10:58, sleeper wrote:   
   > On 27/08/2010 4:45 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >> On 27/08/2010 01:57, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>> On Aug 26, 7:57 am, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that   
   >>>>>>>>> life   
   >>>>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering. Yes, there are   
   >>>>>>>>> those who   
   >>>>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."   
   >>>>>>>>> but it's   
   >>>>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them,   
   >>>>>>>>> that's for sure.   
   >>>>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the   
   >>>>>>>>> only thing   
   >>>>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of   
   >>>>>>>>> Buddhist   
   >>>>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a   
   >>>>>>>>> completely   
   >>>>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued   
   >>>>>>>> rebirth,   
   >>>>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of   
   >>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>> Buddhist path. If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   >>>>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to   
   >>>>>>>> acknowledge   
   >>>>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path: there is   
   >>>>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of   
   >>>>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which   
   >>>>>>>> represents   
   >>>>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the   
   >>>>>>>> path;   
   >>>>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it,   
   >>>>>>>> and the   
   >>>>>>>> principles one develops and practices while alive.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path. You don't get to   
   >>>>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by   
   >>>>>>>> embodying the   
   >>>>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own   
   >>>>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament. Buddha laid out a number of   
   >>>>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations. There is   
   >>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and   
   >>>>>>>> seclusion   
   >>>>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this   
   >>>>>>>> lifetime   
   >>>>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet   
   >>>>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily   
   >>>>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community   
   >>>>>>>> of men   
   >>>>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place   
   >>>>>>>> there   
   >>>>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is the   
   >>>>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the   
   >>>>>>>> path   
   >>>>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to   
   >>>>>>>> other   
   >>>>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual   
   >>>>>>>> involvement with the sangha. No matter which of these paths you   
   >>>>>>>> take,   
   >>>>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes   
   >>>>>>>> according to   
   >>>>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the   
   >>>>>>>> meantime? How do you conduct yourself through the many lifetimes of   
   >>>>>>>> practice?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real   
   >>>>>>>> practitioners   
   >>>>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of   
   >>>>>>>> nibbana   
   >>>>>>>> and try to force your way into it? What you will wind up with is a   
   >>>>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you   
   >>>>>>>> can stay   
   >>>>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for many   
   >>>>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of   
   >>>>>>>> attainment,   
   >>>>>>>> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people   
   >>>>>>>> through   
   >>>>>>>> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.   
   >>>>>>>> Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies   
   >>>>>>>> and work   
   >>>>>>>> with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get   
   >>>>>>>> anywhere   
   >>>>>>>> near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness,   
   >>>>>>>> slow down   
   >>>>>>>> and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises with   
   >>>>>>>> equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path. It may   
   >>>>>>>> take   
   >>>>>>>> a really long time. During this really long process filled with   
   >>>>>>>> occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is   
   >>>>>>>> extremely important. If samsara comes, you deal with it; if nirvana   
   >>>>>>>> comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.   
   >>>>>>>> Deal   
   >>>>>>>> with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that   
   >>>>>>>> which   
   >>>>>>>> *is* what you want. Only by following this Tangian principal   
   >>>>>>>> consistently can you get anywhere that is real.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>>> For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they   
   >>>>>>>> might   
   >>>>>>>> remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of   
   >>>>>>>> deepening   
   >>>>>>>> after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of   
   >>>>>>>> view   
   >>>>>>>> of the enlightened mastes. You *still* have to let go and move on   
   >>>>>>>> and   
   >>>>>>>> continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged   
   >>>>>>>> enlightened awareness. This is repeated over and over again by   
   >>>>>>>> the zen   
   >>>>>>>> masters. Hui Neng had his very deep initial enlightenment   
   >>>>>>>> experience   
   >>>>>>>> hearing a statement from the Diamond Sutra. But he then needed to   
   >>>>>>>> shuck   
   >>>>>>>> rice for 6 months to have his "full" enlightenment under the   
   >>>>>>>> direction   
   >>>>>>>> of the master. And even after that he needed 12 years in the forest   
   >>>>>>>> allowing his enlightenment to riped before he was ready to take his   
      
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