XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 27/08/2010 11:42, sleeper wrote:   
   > On 27/08/2010 6:35 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >> On 27/08/2010 10:58, sleeper wrote:   
   >>> On 27/08/2010 4:45 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >>>> On 27/08/2010 01:57, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>>>> On Aug 26, 7:57 am, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he declared that   
   >>>>>>>>>>> life   
   >>>>>>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering. Yes, there are   
   >>>>>>>>>>> those who   
   >>>>>>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes, fine..."   
   >>>>>>>>>>> but it's   
   >>>>>>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of them,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> that's for sure.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the Buddha the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> only thing   
   >>>>>>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate goal of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist   
   >>>>>>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body of a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> completely   
   >>>>>>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth / karma.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued   
   >>>>>>>>>> rebirth,   
   >>>>>>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of   
   >>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> Buddhist path. If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   >>>>>>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists] fail to   
   >>>>>>>>>> acknowledge   
   >>>>>>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:   
   >>>>>>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the stages of   
   >>>>>>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana, which   
   >>>>>>>>>> represents   
   >>>>>>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal of the   
   >>>>>>>>>> path;   
   >>>>>>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha called it,   
   >>>>>>>>>> and the   
   >>>>>>>>>> principles one develops and practices while alive.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path. You don't   
   >>>>>>>>>> get to   
   >>>>>>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by   
   >>>>>>>>>> embodying the   
   >>>>>>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your own   
   >>>>>>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament. Buddha laid out a   
   >>>>>>>>>> number of   
   >>>>>>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations. There is   
   >>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation and   
   >>>>>>>>>> seclusion   
   >>>>>>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in this   
   >>>>>>>>>> lifetime   
   >>>>>>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and varied yet   
   >>>>>>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who happily   
   >>>>>>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the community   
   >>>>>>>>>> of men   
   >>>>>>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her place   
   >>>>>>>>>> there   
   >>>>>>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and there is   
   >>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect of the   
   >>>>>>>>>> path   
   >>>>>>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it leads to   
   >>>>>>>>>> other   
   >>>>>>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or ritual   
   >>>>>>>>>> involvement with the sangha. No matter which of these paths you   
   >>>>>>>>>> take,   
   >>>>>>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes   
   >>>>>>>>>> according to   
   >>>>>>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do in the   
   >>>>>>>>>> meantime? How do you conduct yourself through the many   
   >>>>>>>>>> lifetimes of   
   >>>>>>>>>> practice?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real   
   >>>>>>>>>> practitioners   
   >>>>>>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your image of   
   >>>>>>>>>> nibbana   
   >>>>>>>>>> and try to force your way into it? What you will wind up with   
   >>>>>>>>>> is a   
   >>>>>>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements, and you   
   >>>>>>>>>> can stay   
   >>>>>>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to nirvana, for   
   >>>>>>>>>> many   
   >>>>>>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of   
   >>>>>>>>>> attainment,   
   >>>>>>>>>> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating people   
   >>>>>>>>>> through   
   >>>>>>>>>> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like Catawampus.   
   >>>>>>>>>> Someone who does not focus on their own "knots" and tendencies   
   >>>>>>>>>> and work   
   >>>>>>>>>> with themselves devotedly and patiently is not going to get   
   >>>>>>>>>> anywhere   
   >>>>>>>>>> near nirvana, even in a dream as the zen masters like to say.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> When you continue to work with awareness and grow mindfulness,   
   >>>>>>>>>> slow down   
   >>>>>>>>>> and still the mind gradually and pay attention to what arises   
   >>>>>>>>>> with   
   >>>>>>>>>> equanimity, then you can actually do the work of the path. It may   
   >>>>>>>>>> take   
   >>>>>>>>>> a really long time. During this really long process filled with   
   >>>>>>>>>> occasional insights, growing of awareness, etc., Tang's advice is   
   >>>>>>>>>> extremely important. If samsara comes, you deal with it; if   
   >>>>>>>>>> nirvana   
   >>>>>>>>>> comes - or what appears to be nirvana - you don't attach to it.   
   >>>>>>>>>> Deal   
   >>>>>>>>>> with what seems *not* what you want; let go and move on from that   
   >>>>>>>>>> which   
   >>>>>>>>>> *is* what you want. Only by following this Tangian principal   
   >>>>>>>>>> consistently can you get anywhere that is real.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> For those who are thrilled with their current enlightenment, they   
   >>>>>>>>>> might   
   >>>>>>>>>> remember that initial enlightenment and many of the stages of   
   >>>>>>>>>> deepening   
   >>>>>>>>>> after that are just stepping stones on the path from the point of   
   >>>>>>>>>> view   
   >>>>>>>>>> of the enlightened mastes. You *still* have to let go and move on   
   >>>>>>>>>> and   
   >>>>>>>>>> continue to cultivate to gain complete, unexcelled, unimpinged   
   >>>>>>>>>> enlightened awareness. This is repeated over and over again by   
   >>>>>>>>>> the zen   
      
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