XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com   
      
   On 28/08/2010 17:50, Julian wrote:   
   > On 28/08/2010 17:25, sleeper wrote:   
   >> On 29/08/2010 12:21 AM, sleeper wrote:   
   >>> On 28/08/2010 9:31 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>> On Aug 28, 5:33 am, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>> On 28/08/2010 5:31 PM, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 28/08/2010 10:04 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On Aug 27, 6:42 am, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 6:35 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 10:58, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 4:45 PM, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 01:57, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 26, 7:57 am, sleeper wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> declared   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering. Yes,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine..."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's for sure.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddha the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only thing   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goal of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth /   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> karma.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebirth,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist path. If we can just check that box, there may   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fail to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acknowledge   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the path:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stages of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represents   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path;   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles one develops and practices while alive.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path. You   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embodying the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament. Buddha laid out a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seclusion   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetime   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> varied yet   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happily   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of men   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leads to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ritual   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involvement with the sangha. No matter which of these   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paths you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do you do   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meantime? How do you conduct yourself through the many   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetimes of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> image of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nibbana   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and try to force your way into it? What you will wind up   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with is a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can stay   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nirvana, for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attainment,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled with spiritual pride like niunian, or defeating   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forceful logic like a pompous and bombastic fool like   
      
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