XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: Julianlzb87@gmail.com
On 28/08/2010 17:53, sleeper wrote:
> On 29/08/2010 12:50 AM, Julian wrote:
>> On 28/08/2010 17:25, sleeper wrote:
>>> On 29/08/2010 12:21 AM, sleeper wrote:
>>>> On 28/08/2010 9:31 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 28, 5:33 am, sleeper wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/08/2010 5:31 PM, sleeper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 28/08/2010 10:04 AM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Aug 27, 6:42 am, sleeper wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 6:35 PM, Julian wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 10:58, sleeper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 4:45 PM, Julian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/08/2010 01:57, Awaken21 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 26, 7:57 am, sleeper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/08/2010 7:50 PM, Awaken21 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 26, 6:34 am, Julian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/08/2010 04:34, DharmaTroll wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, halfawake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bodhidumba wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly, the Buddha wasn't kidding around when he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> declared
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [samsara] is dukkha / unsatisfactory / suffering. Yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say that "...if Nirvana comes, fine, if Samsara comes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious from the above that the Buddha was not one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's for sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, ultimately speaking, going by the above -- to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddha the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *really* is 'fine' is Parinirvana, the "ultimate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goal of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice" - within reach only upon the death of the body
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awakened one -- the release from samsara / rebirth /
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> karma.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebirth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the end of continued rebirth was a final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist path. If we can just check that box, there may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility of establishing some other points.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What you cessationists [annihilationists/nihilists]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fail to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acknowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that there are two [count 'em two] aspects to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you keep harping on - the accomplishment of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stages of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arahatship which culminates in parinibbana/parinirvana,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represents
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stepwise systematic accomplishment of the final goal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there is the path itself, the holy life as Buddha
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles one develops and practices while alive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This second aspect of the path is the actual path. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parinibbana by following the path "by the numbers" but by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embodying the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles of the Noble Eight-fold Path according to your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accumulated tendencies and temperament. Buddha laid out a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub-paths to follow for people in different situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straight-and-narrow path of almost total self-abnegation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seclusion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from life for those who have the propensity and desire in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetime
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to live as a monk; there is the more complex, rich and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> varied yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately equally effective life of the householder, who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engages in life as a Buddhist practitioner within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of men
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and women, families and institutions and takes his or her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while following a less stringent set of precepts; and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-selected practitioner who takes a particular aspect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that fits for them, and follows it consistently until it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leads to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good effects, such as meditation, good works/metta, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ritual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involvement with the sangha. No matter which of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paths you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will take 99% of people a myriad number of lifetimes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddha to get anywhere near parinibbana. So what do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meantime? How do you conduct yourself through the many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetimes of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is within this practice context of real life for real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Tang's dictate makes sense. Do you *cling* to your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> image of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nibbana
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and try to force your way into it? What you will wind up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced samadhi based on suppression of the defilements,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can stay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that way, perhaps thinking you are in or close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nirvana, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetimes, with thought cut off by suppression instead of
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