XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Catawumpus wrote:   
      
   > halfawake :   
   >   
   >   
   >>There is no doubt that the Buddha was not in favor of continued rebirth,   
   >>and that the end of continued rebirth was a final destination of the   
   >>Buddhist path.  If we can just check that box, there may be some   
   >>possibility of establishing some other points.   
   >   
   >   
   >      Rob has trouble keeping that box checked, probably because   
   > of his own opinion life is quite wonderful -- an obvious   
   > contrast to the Buddha's description of it as suffering and his   
   > advice against coming back again.   
   >   
   >   
   >>It is within this practice context of real life for real practitioners   
   >>that Tang's dictate makes sense.   
   >   
   >   
   >      Tang's dictate makes practicing Buddhism nonsense.  Things   
   > are fine, he insists, nirvana or samsara.  Ergo there's no   
   > reason to be concerned, no reason to follow the dhamma, no need   
   > for a path.   
   >   
   > -- Catawumpus   
      
   You are confused between cessation and liberation.  As I said before,   
   although you don't admit it, many of your statements imply that you   
   think that ending rebirth is the only significant goal of the path and   
   everything else is directed towards that end.  Yet much of Buddha's   
   suttas are focused on liberation during this lifetime and how to live a   
   sane and enlightened existence, not merely on how to end it all.  Buddha   
   may have allowed suicide for the enlightened, but he did not advocate it   
   or emphasize it as you do.  Buddha may have had cessation without   
   rebirth as a final goal of the path, but he did not insist, as you do,   
   that other aspects of Buddhism are meaningless.  When you say that   
   Tang's dictate "makes practicing Buddhism nonsense," you clearly   
   demonstrate that you personally have no respect for the Buddhist   
   liberation, and are a pure cessationist or annihilationist.  The tenor   
   of your posts is overwhelmingly nihilistic, and you show little interest   
   or capacity to understand Buddha as a positive force to end suffering   
   through enlightenment in the here-and-now.   
      
   Where you see rebirth as suffering itself, I see it as a symptom of   
   suffering.  The end of suffering is achieved through liberation of   
   consciousness, not through permanent death.   
      
   The ending of karma that caused rebirth was not new with Buddha, it is   
   not his major contribution.  Hindu philosophy preached the elimination   
   of karma that would lead to reincarnation for thousands of years before   
   Buddha.  Buddha's great contribution is in the understanding of the   
   psychological dimension of existence, and how clinging and craving cause   
   suffering in the moment.  He taught more effectively than anyone else   
   how to release clinging, craving and delusion, so that one could   
   eliminate psychological suffering now, and the rebirth that is the   
   result of clinging and craving as well.   
      
   Rebirth is a further extension of the rebirth of suffering self-concept   
   that is reconstituted in every moment of clinging and craving.  That is   
   the psychological reality that causes rebirth.  You show no interest in   
   ending suffering now, but only in preventing further existence.  The   
   desire to end existence was listed by the Buddha as one of the fetters   
   that keep one from achieving liberation.  It is a major craving that is   
   to be eliminated along with all others.  You are stuck in it.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)