XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: kimmerian@fastmail.fm   
      
   halfawake :   
      
   > Not true.   
      
        Very true.  The Four Noble Truths begin by describing life   
   as suffering and go on to teach against "the craving that   
   leads to rebirth," disproving Jigme's brain-dead claim Buddhism   
   "does not comment negatively on life here."  Other examples   
   include the comparison of the world with a burning house in the   
   Lotus Sutra and Gotama's remark, "I spit on my life," or "Shame   
   on life here in this world!" in the Padhana Sutta.  Jigme   
   couldn't have been more wrong, though you might be able to give   
   him some competition.   
      
   > The 4 NT advise against the craving that leads to rebirth.   
   > Once the craving and delusion it is based on are gone, one is free to   
   > show up as a Bodhisattva or not.  Buddha would not advise against an   
   > enlightened one undergoing rebirth.  They have freedom to come and go as   
   > they please.   
      
        Not according to you, no.  You imagined a rule prohibiting   
   arahants from killing themselves and contended there was   
   merely a single, particular exception ("that one example of the   
   horribly ill arahat"), but you were wrong on both counts:   
   an arahant is free to commit suicide because he has a "pacified   
   mind" (i.e., his "kamma is no longer operative"), and the   
   Lotus Sutra gives an example:  the Bodhisattva   
   Sarvasattvapriyadarsana immolates his body after achieving full   
   consciousness, an action described as "the most sublime   
   worship of the law" by the eight Buddhas who are said to be his   
   audience.   
      
   > He also talks about the joy of seclusion, the pleasure of meditation and   
   > the jhanas as a "pleasant abiding in the here and now."   
      
        Interesting what you skipped.  The same sutta in which the   
   Buddha calls _jhana_ "pleasant abiding" describes him   
   explaining that the _jhanas_ begin with a monk "quite withdrawn   
   from sensuality" and with "rapture and pleasure born from   
   withdrawal."  Third time that you've managed to ignore the same   
   detail.   
      
   > You can choose   
   > nihilism as you do, or you can choose the middle path as Buddha did,   
      
        You're confused.  The "middle way" stands between extremes   
   of sensuality and asceticism:   
      
        There are these two extremes that are not to be   
        indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That   
        which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to   
        sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble,   
        unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction:   
        painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these   
        extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata.   
      
       www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html   
      
   -- Catawumpus   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)