XPost: alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   glitch wrote:   
      
   > On 09/07/2010 12:30 PM, halfawake wrote:   
   >   
   >> doctor bitch wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 23/07/2010 3:42 AM, Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "firehose"  wrote in message   
   >>>> news:i29v4q$vpb$4@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> "Nobody in Particular"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> "Nobody in Particular"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 4:43 pm, "Evelyn"  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> "firehose"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>>>> > Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> "firehose"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>> Catawumpus wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Jigme Dorje :   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Analytically speaking, religions can also be analyzed   
   >>>>>>>>>>> along   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> an entirely different axis: the extent to which one is   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> literal in interpretation. The more literal the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> interpretation, the dumber, more uni-dimensional and   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> mind-limited the result. On the other end of the spectrum   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> lies the use of words as "pointers." These are more   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> likely to be the testimony of the experience the deeper   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> levels by very aware individuals. They might be   
   >>>>>>>>>>> embellished   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> with mythology, and subject to biases and inaccuracies in   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> their production as a sanctioned body of work. But one   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> recognizes the experience of awakening and its results   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> regardless of how poorly it might be presented.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> You claim to not have dogma and opinions, but here you are   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> dogmatically opinionating on the topic of literal   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> interpretations.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> You argue against making discriminations, and yet you're   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> distinguishing literal interpretations from figurative   
   >>>>>>>>>>> ones,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> which   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> you like much more. So much for walking the walk.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> [big snip]   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> To be clear, I'm not making myself your opposite number by   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> arguing literal readings are always valid and figurative   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> interpretations are always deceitful. I'm simply showing a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> few of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> the ways in which metaphorical or allegorical   
   >>>>>>>>>>> understandings   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> have been used to push scripture into conformity with   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> doctrine: the same   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> procedure that you rely on when confronted by items in   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> conflict with   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> your preferred conclusions.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>> There are many ways to read someone.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>> We don't have to read him argumentatively, when he   
   >>>>>>>>>>> expects to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>> be read   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >>> compassionately.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> >> Firehose, Jigme is usually very compassionate.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> > We all are.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> > Especially when reading our own writings. ;-)   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> > BTW he does not appear to be as fragile as Tang is trying to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> make   
   >>>>>>>>>>> > him out to be.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> He isn't. Tang has always worked very hard at creating a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> fictional Jigme who never really existed. Nobody has ever been   
   >>>>>>>>>>> able to convince   
   >>>>>>>>>>> him that this is a crazy assumption based on nothing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> --   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Evelyn   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> In the stony fastness of the mountains there is a strange   
   >>>>>>>>>>> market,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> where   
   >>>>>>>>>>> one may barter the vortex of life for boundless bliss. –   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Milarepa-   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Hide quoted text -   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> And in fact, isn't that what we all do?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> It brings to mind Tolle's account of observing a lady talking to   
   >>>>>>>>>> herself in public - carrying on an internal dialogue about all   
   >>>>>>>>>> the   
   >>>>>>>>>> wrongs that had been done her. As he thought over her predicament   
   >>>>>>>>>> it occurred to him - isn't this what I'm doing too within my mind   
   >>>>>>>>>> all day long, day in, day out? How can we find peace, quiet the   
   >>>>>>>>>> mind sufficiently to enter the pureness of the moment when we are   
   >>>>>>>>>> constantly carrying on internal dialogues, entertaining voices of   
   >>>>>>>>>> discontent?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Instead of letting the voices run us, we can just observe the   
   >>>>>>>>>> mental   
   >>>>>>>>>> fermentations without judgement, and in stepping outside of the   
   >>>>>>>>>> din,   
   >>>>>>>>>> the observer is experienced as true being.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Whoever thought awakening could be so easy?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> I've heard that from several people, how easy that is. So why   
   >>>>>>>>> is it   
   >>>>>>>>> so hard for most of us?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> We are complicated beings, and we are rather attached to our   
   >>>>>>>> idea of   
   >>>>>>>> ourselves. Kalu Rinpoche said the following:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> "There is nothing to be gained, nothing to be found which is not   
   >>>>>>>> there   
   >>>>>>>> already.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Truth is so simple, Buddhahood is so simple, Bodhicitta is so   
   >>>>>>>> simple.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Truth is here, even here in this very cell. Truth is in you. The   
   >>>>>>>> silence,   
   >>>>>>>> the sunyata is in you. You are the silence, you are the truth; you   
   >>>>>>>> are the   
   >>>>>>>> Buddha. It is here at this moment, so simple and so near. Yet we   
   >>>>>>>> make it   
   >>>>>>>> so distant when it is so near, so complicated when it is so simple.   
   >>>>>>>> Do you know what it is like to be ready to set out, to be at the   
   >>>>>>>> roadside and   
   >>>>>>>> beside your motorcar, but to have lost the way?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> You are the Buddha.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Then why do you not feel it? Why do you not know it? Because there   
   >>>>>>>> is a veil in the way, attachment to appearances, the belief that   
   >>>>>>>> you   
   >>>>>>>> are not the   
   >>>>>>>> Buddha, that you are a separate individual, (an atma). If you   
   >>>>>>>> cannot   
   >>>>>>>> remove this veil wholly and at once, then you must dissolve it   
   >>>>>>>> little   
   >>>>>>>> by little.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)