XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: kimmerian@fastmail.fm   
      
   Nobody in Particular :   
      
   [Sakalika Sutta]   
      
   > Enlightenment has no effect on pain, but eliminates suffering ("bearing up   
   > so well")   
      
        Exactly wrong.  Think.  If enlightenment always eliminated   
   suffering, the Buddha wouldn't have anything to bear up   
   against in the Sakalika Sutta, where his foot is cut by a sharp   
   piece of rock.  But the sutta doesn't say that he was free   
   from suffering, transcended suffering, or anything of that kind.   
   Just the opposite:  according to the story told there he   
   _endured_ some painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, and   
   disagreeable feelings, which directly implies he suffered   
   their effects.  Otherwise the statement "he endures them" would   
   be meaningless -- you don't say someone is enduring pain   
   they're not suffering -- and the praise he's given for enduring   
   them "mindful, alert, & unperturbed" would be completely   
   nonsensical.  Why not feel unperturbed when nothing's bothering   
   you?   
      
        To repeat, I don't want to put too much weight on one word   
   in a translation.  But so far as the Buddha endures pain --   
   the assertion in Bhikkhu's rendering -- instead of transcending   
   or escaping it, the idea that "the enlightened have gone   
   beyond suffering" is clearly contradicted by the Sakalika Sutta.   
      
   -- Catawumpus   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)