XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Catawumpus wrote:   
      
   > Nobody in Particular :   
   >   
   > [Sakalika Sutta]   
   >   
   >   
   >>Enlightenment has no effect on pain, but eliminates suffering ("bearing up   
   >>so well")   
   >   
   >   
   >      Exactly wrong.  Think.  If enlightenment always eliminated   
   > suffering, the Buddha wouldn't have anything to bear up   
   > against in the Sakalika Sutta, where his foot is cut by a sharp   
   > piece of rock.  But the sutta doesn't say that he was free   
   > from suffering, transcended suffering, or anything of that kind.   
   > Just the opposite:  according to the story told there he   
   > _endured_ some painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, and   
   > disagreeable feelings, which directly implies he suffered   
   > their effects.  Otherwise the statement "he endures them" would   
   > be meaningless -- you don't say someone is enduring pain   
   > they're not suffering -- and the praise he's given for enduring   
   > them "mindful, alert, & unperturbed" would be completely   
   > nonsensical.  Why not feel unperturbed when nothing's bothering   
   > you?   
   >   
   >      To repeat, I don't want to put too much weight on one word   
   > in a translation.  But so far as the Buddha endures pain --   
   > the assertion in Bhikkhu's rendering -- instead of transcending   
   > or escaping it, the idea that "the enlightened have gone   
   > beyond suffering" is clearly contradicted by the Sakalika Sutta.   
   >   
   > -- Catawumpus   
      
   There is a non-trivial distinction in Buddhism, promoted by Buddha   
   himself in the parable of the two arrows, that the more important   
   suffering is the suffering that can be removed by enlightenment, which   
   is psychospiritual suffering added by concern over the self, and that   
   physical pain is able to be borne with equanimity by the enlightened   
   because they do not identify with the body in a personal way.   
      
   In any case Buddha makes this distinction between those two arrows -   
   physical pain and the mental suffering and anguish caused by one's   
   reaction and concern over it.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)