XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: kimmerian@fastmail.fm   
      
   halfawake :   
      
   > I wasn't going into detail - I was describing the definition of the   
   > jhanas as given by the Buddha: "A pleasant abiding in the here and now."   
   >   That's Buddha's overall summary of those states, not mine.   
      
        That's you editing the Buddha's reported teachings to make   
   them fit your Disney-fied Buddhism.  According to the   
   Samadhanga Sutta, the Buddha is referring to a monk who's quite   
   "withdrawn from sensuality" experiencing "rapture and   
   pleasure born from withdrawal," the opposite of a life-clinging   
   attitude.   
      
        What's more, the Buddha is preaching against what he calls   
   the "five strings of sensuality":  things pleasing and   
   agreeable to the five senses, which tie people up and make them   
   Mara's victims.  Conversely, monks who have abandoned   
   sensuality can become "invisible to the Evil One" and enter the   
   jhanas.   
      
        So that "pleasant abiding in the here and now" is actually   
   part of the Buddha's teaching _against_ the world of the   
   senses.  When he discusses the higher jhanas he talks about the   
   transcendence of form and space, which not only blinds Mara   
   but makes "the here and now" into a thoroughly meaningless idea.   
      
   [the middle way]   
      
   > sensual pleasure does represent attachment to existence, and   
   > self-affliction does represent an aversion to existence.   
      
        You're confused.  The middle way is located in between two   
   practices, devotion to sensual pleasure and devotion to   
   self-affliction -- Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta -- _not_ between   
   attachment and aversion to life, the two attitudes you   
   mistakenly thought it balanced.  Aversion to life is plain both   
   in the description of worldly existence as dukkha and the   
   teaching against "the craving that leads to rebirth."  The path   
   aims away from the world.   
      
   > The latter part of this statement describing the road out of Dodge as   
   > between "self-indulgence and self-denial" is almost precisely what I   
   > said the middle way was, "between attachment and aversion to existence."   
      
        No, it's almost precisely the opposite.  You wrongly claim   
   that the middle way compromises between attachment and   
   aversion to life.  I correct you by saying it's located between   
   self-indulgence and self-denial -- practices rather than   
   philosophies -- and reminding you that the path leads away from   
   the world.   
      
   -- Catawumpus   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)