XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: kimmerian@fastmail.fm   
      
   Catawumpus :   
      
   >>                 The Four Noble   
   >> Truths date, scripturally speaking, from after the Buddha's   
   >> enlightenment, and nothing in the sutta suggests he was kidding   
   >> when he described life as suffering and put the root of the   
   >> problem in "the craving that leads to rebirth," a very critical   
   >> view of worldly existence.   
      
   halfawake :   
      
   > This is idiotic.  The above does not represent what I said.   
      
        Shameful of me to give my own thoughts.  Everything should   
   represent what you say, preferably by quoting your posts in   
   their entirety, but if necessary by paraphrasing what you wrote.   
      
   > I said his   
   > AUDIENCE was not enlightened, not him, and I've said this repeatedly.   
      
        You said the "Buddha's message was tailored to the   
   understanding of those in his audience," but all you showed was   
   a desire to tailor his message to your taste.  And you   
   explained what kind of taste that is by admitting you're "still   
   a clinger to the life-experience."   
      
   > What does that have to do with my point?   
      
        Simple.  You cite the jhanas as proof of "pleasant abiding   
   in the here and now," but every time you do, you somehow   
   neglect to mention that the Buddha is referring to a monk who's   
   "withdrawn from sensuality" and describing "rapture and   
   pleasure born from withdrawal," the opposite of a life-clinging   
   attitude.   
      
   > The are defined as a "pleasant abiding in the here and now" by Buddha,   
   > not by me. ALL of them.   
      
        Or none of 'em.  If you're going to insist on that precise   
   wording, then it depends which translation of which sutta.   
   Anyway, this is at least the sixth time you've quoted   
   "pleasant abiding in the here and now" while neglecting to even   
   mention that the Buddha relates the jhanas to his teaching   
   against the "five strings of sensuality," i.e., things pleasing   
   to the senses, refers to a monk "quite withdrawn from   
   sensuality," and describes rapture "born from withdrawal."  The   
   opposite of a life-clinging attitude.   
      
   > Your idea that "here-and-now" becomes   
   > meaningless in the higher jhanas is your own, not Buddha's.  In any   
      
        Even in the lower jhanas, the concept of "here and now" is   
   highly qualified by the Buddha's teaching against the five   
   senses and in favor of withdrawal; in the higher ones it's made   
   meaningless by his statements about transcending form and   
   space.  Awfully hard to have a nice here and now w/out anywhere   
   for it to go.   
      
   -- Catawumpus   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)