XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Catawumpus wrote:   
      
   > halfawake :   
   >   
   >   
   >>I wasn't going into detail - I was describing the definition of the   
   >>jhanas as given by the Buddha: "A pleasant abiding in the here and now."   
   >>  That's Buddha's overall summary of those states, not mine.   
   >   
   >   
   >      That's you editing the Buddha's reported teachings to make   
   > them fit your Disney-fied Buddhism.  According to the   
   > Samadhanga Sutta, the Buddha is referring to a monk who's quite   
   > "withdrawn from sensuality" experiencing "rapture and   
   > pleasure born from withdrawal," the opposite of a life-clinging   
   > attitude.   
   >   
   >      What's more, the Buddha is preaching against what he calls   
   > the "five strings of sensuality":  things pleasing and   
   > agreeable to the five senses, which tie people up and make them   
   > Mara's victims.  Conversely, monks who have abandoned   
   > sensuality can become "invisible to the Evil One" and enter the   
   > jhanas.   
   >   
   >      So that "pleasant abiding in the here and now" is actually   
   > part of the Buddha's teaching _against_ the world of the   
   > senses.  When he discusses the higher jhanas he talks about the   
   > transcendence of form and space, which not only blinds Mara   
   > but makes "the here and now" into a thoroughly meaningless idea.   
   >   
   > [the middle way]   
   >   
   >   
   >>sensual pleasure does represent attachment to existence, and   
   >>self-affliction does represent an aversion to existence.   
   >   
   >   
   >      You're confused.  The middle way is located in between two   
   > practices, devotion to sensual pleasure and devotion to   
   > self-affliction -- Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta -- _not_ between   
   > attachment and aversion to life, the two attitudes you   
   > mistakenly thought it balanced.  Aversion to life is plain both   
   > in the description of worldly existence as dukkha and the   
   > teaching against "the craving that leads to rebirth."  The path   
   > aims away from the world.   
      
   On the other hand, Buddha plainly says that attachment to cessation will   
   prevent liberation.   
      
   >>The latter part of this statement describing the road out of Dodge as   
   >>between "self-indulgence and self-denial" is almost precisely what I   
   >>said the middle way was, "between attachment and aversion to existence."   
   >   
   >   
   >      No, it's almost precisely the opposite.  You wrongly claim   
   > that the middle way compromises between attachment and   
   > aversion to life.  I correct you by saying it's located between   
   > self-indulgence and self-denial -- practices rather than   
   > philosophies -- and reminding you that the path leads away from   
   > the world.   
      
   If you eschew both self-indulgence and self-denial, what you have left   
   is a balanced, simple acceptance of the basics of life, while following   
   the spiritual path.  This includes in a practical way the simple but   
   wholesome life of a monk, which is a joyful existence, and the basic   
   duties, responsibilities and activities of the lay householder, which is   
   also meant to be simple, directed towards the spiritual aims of the   
   Noble eightfold path, and filled with joy.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = = =   
      
   Best,   
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)