XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Catawumpus wrote:   
      
   > Catawumpus :   
   >   
   >   
   >>>                The Four Noble   
   >>>Truths date, scripturally speaking, from after the Buddha's   
   >>>enlightenment, and nothing in the sutta suggests he was kidding   
   >>>when he described life as suffering and put the root of the   
   >>>problem in "the craving that leads to rebirth," a very critical   
   >>>view of worldly existence.   
   >   
   >   
   > halfawake :   
   >   
   >   
   >>This is idiotic.  The above does not represent what I said.   
   >   
   >   
   >      Shameful of me to give my own thoughts.  Everything should   
   > represent what you say, preferably by quoting your posts in   
   > their entirety, but if necessary by paraphrasing what you wrote.   
   >   
   >   
   >>I said his   
   >>AUDIENCE was not enlightened, not him, and I've said this repeatedly.   
   >   
   >   
   >      You said the "Buddha's message was tailored to the   
   > understanding of those in his audience," but all you showed was   
   > a desire to tailor his message to your taste.  And you   
   > explained what kind of taste that is by admitting you're "still   
   > a clinger to the life-experience."   
   >   
   >   
   >>What does that have to do with my point?   
   >   
   >   
   >      Simple.  You cite the jhanas as proof of "pleasant abiding   
   > in the here and now," but every time you do, you somehow   
   > neglect to mention that the Buddha is referring to a monk who's   
   > "withdrawn from sensuality" and describing "rapture and   
   > pleasure born from withdrawal," the opposite of a life-clinging   
   > attitude.   
   >   
   >   
   >>The are defined as a "pleasant abiding in the here and now" by Buddha,   
   >>not by me. ALL of them.   
   >   
   >   
   >      Or none of 'em.  If you're going to insist on that precise   
   > wording, then it depends which translation of which sutta.   
   > Anyway, this is at least the sixth time you've quoted   
   > "pleasant abiding in the here and now" while neglecting to even   
   > mention that the Buddha relates the jhanas to his teaching   
   > against the "five strings of sensuality," i.e., things pleasing   
   > to the senses, refers to a monk "quite withdrawn from   
   > sensuality," and describes rapture "born from withdrawal."  The   
   > opposite of a life-clinging attitude.   
   >   
   >   
   >>Your idea that "here-and-now" becomes   
   >>meaningless in the higher jhanas is your own, not Buddha's.  In any   
   >   
   >   
   >      Even in the lower jhanas, the concept of "here and now" is   
   > highly qualified by the Buddha's teaching against the five   
   > senses and in favor of withdrawal; in the higher ones it's made   
   > meaningless by his statements about transcending form and   
   > space.  Awfully hard to have a nice here and now w/out anywhere   
   > for it to go.   
   >   
   > -- Catawumpus   
      
   The point is that there is a joyful, pleasant, positive experience given   
   by the Buddhist path while still in the world and while still living in   
   a body.  True it is a respite from the sufferings of the world, and   
   true, it is based in withdrawal from the sensory involvements of the   
   world, but I accept all those qualifications.  It demonstrates my point   
   that life is full of suffering for the deluded, and that those who are   
   on the Buddhist path are given ways of mitigating and gaining release   
   from suffering prior to cessation of the life-process.  Whatever other   
   qualifications you want to throw in are fine with me.  The fact remains   
   that Buddhism teaches ways out of suffering and access to states of joy   
   while in this present life.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)