722e5a1e   
   XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: epsteinrob@yahoo.com   
      
   Hollywood Lee wrote:   
      
   > On Sep 15, 12:01 am, halfawake  wrote:   
   >   
   >>Nobody in Particular wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>Hollywood Lee wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>>On Sep 13, 10:22 pm, halfawake  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>>>Catawumpus wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>>>>halfawake :   
   >>   
   >>>>>>>He picks up new info in an odd way.  All of his info is contained in   
   >>   
   >>>>>>I guess Rob has to tell himself something.  His "new" info   
   >>>>>>is old news, like the two arrows, and it doesn't remove the   
   >>>>>>items disputing him, for example the Buddha's implied suffering   
   >>>>>>in the Sakalika Sutta, the practice of religious suicide in   
   >>>>>>Buddhist scripture and history, and the critical perspective on   
   >>>>>>worldly existence in the Four Noble Truths and related   
   >>>>>>teachings.  He can try to ignore them, but that won't make them   
   >>>>>>go away.   
   >>   
   >>>>>>-- Catawumpus   
   >>   
   >>>>>I haven't ignored them.  I've acknowledged all of them, everything you   
   >>>>>said, and included them in my posts after that, but you just won't   
   >>>>>accept it.   
   >>   
   >>>>You should probably take your own assessment seriously, and just let   
   >>>>go of the fruitless discussion.  Cat has done an admirable job of   
   >>>>getting people to react to his studied ignorance of your explanations   
   >>>>- his posts on suffering are splendid examples of intentional   
   >>>>misunderstanding as a tactical tool in debate.  Why go further?   
   >>   
   >>>"studied ignorance of explanation" - you hit the nail square on the head.   
   >>>You make a statement, he misinterprets it.  You explain what you meant, he   
   >>>calls you a liar, ignores your explanation and insists that you meant   
   >>>something different.   
   >>>I was already thinking that no-one could be that stupid and still be able to   
   >>>operate a computer.  Your explanation makes perfect sense.   
   >>   
   >>>Niunian is similar, only he tries to get people to react by using   
   >>>vulgarities.  I watched his interchange with Kitty, where she refused to   
   >>>react, and he got more and more shrill, until it was obvious that it was   
   >>>staged.   
   >>   
   >>If cat were a social psychology experiment, it would be to see if people   
   >>continue to become increasingly more engaged in response to continued   
   >>misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what they say.  The answer is   
   >>probably a big 'yes,' as the desire to clarify what you mean in the face   
   >>of misunderstanding is almost irresistible.   
   >   
   >   
   > Sure, and irrespective of the silly content and poor logic quality of   
   > his posts, he is able to demonstrate that all the years of meditation   
   > and Buddhist practice are of little value, as his interlocutors become   
   > agitated and attached to their views and ego.  Very clever, even if   
   > fairly common.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
      
   Yeah! It's surprising that no one ever thought of exposing all us fake   
   Buddhists before!  ha ha ha ha ha!  I guess that's one for the "new   
   idea" department alright.   
      
   I guess you're right that the issue of how easily equanimity is thrown   
   by the wayside and 'self-view' takes over is the most important result   
   of these types of arguments.  In some of the other discussions there is   
   actually content of value for those trying to practice Buddhism, and   
   that's another issue; but when it comes to argumentum infinitus   
   stupiditus like the ones with the auto-repetitive and aspersion-casting   
   catawumpus, it really is a good stable repeating wall to bounce the old   
   Tangian reactivity experiment against.   
      
   In terms of all the Buddhist practice being shown to be of little value,   
   I wouldn't go that far.  There are several levels of changes that take   
   place as result of practice, and maintaining equanimity in the face of   
   an argumentative debate may be one of the last ones to go.  I won't get   
   into it in this context, but that is one of the things I have found   
   valuable around here:  comparing notes on what practice people do, and   
   in what ways it has or hasn't affected their quality of life and   
   understanding.   
      
   I agree though - when the rubber meets the road, most of us are too   
   quickly ready to bounce off the wall.   
      
   Robert   
      
   = = = = = = =   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)