XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com   
      
   "Allen Barker"  wrote in message   
   news:i42v3s$i2t$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   > On 08/12/2010 08:26 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >> On Aug 12, 1:18 pm, Julian  wrote:   
   >>> On 12/08/2010 17:42, DT wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> Well, here's a question for you, or Jigme, or whoever.   
   >>>   
   >>>> If somebody were to ask me for a brief synopsis of the New Testament,   
   >>>> or   
   >>>> of Jesus' teachings, I'd tell 'em to read Matthew 5-7, the Sermon on   
   >>>> the   
   >>>> Mount.   
   >>>   
   >>>> Is there a comparable portion of the Lotus Sutra that might hit all the   
   >>>> high points,   
   >>>   
   >>> No (imo)   
   >>>   
   >>>> or do I need to just start at the beginning and go through   
   >>>> all 28 chapters?   
   >>>   
   >>> You might as well, but you can skip nearly half of each chapter   
   >>> since often the prose is repeated as verse.   
   >>>   
   >>> ps.   
   >>> Nichiren followed the T'ien-t'ai line in emphasising   
   >>> ch. 2  Expedient Means   
   >>> and, particularly, the "jewel"   
   >>> ch.16 The Life Span of the Tathāgata   
   >>   
   >> Expedient means? That's ALL it's about.   
   >>   
   >> I'll save you the trouble of reading it. Here's the Cliff Notes   
   >> version, which I call "Lotus in a Nutshell":   
   >>   
   >> The Buddha admits that everything he's told us up to now has been just   
   >> a pack of lies. Now he's decided to come clean.   
   >>   
   >> But first, he makes a bunch of excuses for all those lies. It seems he   
   >> did it for our own good because we were too childish to understand for   
   >> real, and he just wanted to save our sorry asses.   
   >>   
   >> So the real truth is: I wasn't really a man who became enlightened.   
   >>   
   >> I was an immortal god all along, deserving of your worship. I'm only   
   >> telling you this now because you're so much better than all those   
   >> other uncomprehending dolts.   
   >>   
   >> A beautiful story with a special appeal to triumphalist egotists.   
   >   
   > Wow, I wasn't expecting that "analysis" from Jigme...   
      
      
   There are many others just as scathing in their opinions.   This is what   
   Richard Hayes, author of "land of no buddha" and others, had to say about it   
   when he used to post here.   
      
   Buddha Baby wrote:   
      
   > Seeing that you have touched upon the subject of Buddhist traditions, I   
   > would like to   
   > take this opportunity to ask you to clarify your position on a related   
   > matter. The   
   > Saddharmapundarika Sutra a.k.a. the Lotus Sutra.   
      
   My position in a nutshell is that I quite like the Lotus Sutra for its   
   poetry, its imagery, its imaginative parables, its irony and its humour.   
   I think it is a brilliant piece of literature. As a long-time Zen   
   practitioner, I also happen to love it as liturgy. The chapter on   
   Avalokiteshvara moves me deeply. (I have said all these things many   
   times.)   
      
   Like Chih-I, I think the Sad-dahrma-pundarika is a text that a person   
   should study only after having a mastery of the nikaayas, the   
   praj~naa-paaramitaa and some of the other suutras such as the   
   Vimalakiirti-nirdes'a. It is only when one has a firm foundation in the   
   full dharma tradition that the subtlety of the text becomes apparent.   
   Therefore, I think it is lamentable when people focus exclusively, or   
   even primarily, on the Lotus Sutra and turn it into a polemic text   
   trivializing other forms of Buddhism and suggesting that they offer   
   lesser goals, lower aspirations and diminished attainments. Used as a   
   pretext for triumphalism, as SOME (but by no means all) followers of   
   Nichiren use it, the Lotus Sutra becomes a platform for a kind of   
   bigotry that I find completely contrary to the spirit of the sad-dharma.   
   Studied properly and in the proper sequence of study, as the   
   T'ien-t'ai/Tendai traditions studied it, it is a beautiful text with a   
   sublime message. It saddens me deeply to see it abused, both by some of   
   its more ignorant and fanatical admirers (whose abuse is obviously   
   unintentional but nevertheless quite damaging) and by its various   
   detractors.   
      
   Mubul   
   (Richard P. Hayes)   
      
   And here is another;   
      
      
   Doc Mark Rogow wrote:   
      
   >        The Lotus Sutra teaches that icchantikas can be saved by virtue of   
   > the   
   > Sutra but nowhere does it teach that they don't exist.   
      
   If you have the time to give me a precise reference, I would appreciate   
   getting it. You can cite the page number of any English translation of   
   the Lotus Sutra. I have five of them. The reference works I have give   
   many references to passages in the Lankavatara but not to any in the   
   Lotus where the term is used.   
      
   I cannot recall seeing a discussion of icchantikas in the Lotus Sutra. I   
   am, of course, quite familiar with the concept as it comes up in the   
   Lankavatara. There is it said that for every icchantika there is a   
   bodhisattva dedicated to bringing the icchantika to full realization of   
   the Dharma. This is quite a wonderful image, like that of the   
   irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Part of the emotional   
   impact of the image, of course, is that bodisattvas are so altruistic   
   that they will forever postpone their own entry into final nirvana. They   
   will remain eternally in samsara, if need be, in order to work for the   
   welfare of others. They will forgo the greatest good so that others can   
   have it. That's a very beautiful image of nobility of spirit.   
      
   > I know quite a few personally.   
      
   It is said that only an icchantika can recognize another icchantika. One   
   of their characteristics is that they flock together.   
      
   >                                                                What   
   > is the cause for attaining buddhahood in the latter day? Only chanting   
   > Namu   
   > myoho renge kyo with faith in the Lotus Sutra(Eternal Buddha).   
      
   >          It  is in no way the fault of the Buddha if one refuses to   
   > believe the   
   > Lotus Sutra and to attain Buddhahood quickly.   
      
   Let me speak to you as one poet to another, Mark. As a poet, I quite   
   like the Lotus Sutra. I think of it as being like the golden crown   
   sitting on the head of a splendid and dignified King. The body of that   
   monarch is the Body of Dharma, the corpus of all Buddhist texts of all   
   the vehicles. Flowing through the body of that great monarch is the   
   royal lifeblood of Dependent Origination, also known as Emptiness. It is   
   that royal blood that runs in the veins of every great King worthy of   
   the name. And sitting atop that splendid and radiant monarch is a sutra   
   that inspires the imagination, fires the emotions, gladdens the heart   
   and inspires one to revere the King with full dedication of his body,   
   heart and mind.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)