XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com   
      
   "DT"  wrote in message   
   news:i43o8j11s8l@news1.newsguy.com...   
   > Evelyn wrote:   
   >>   
   >> "Allen Barker"  wrote in message   
   >> news:i42v3s$i2t$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>> On 08/12/2010 08:26 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>> On Aug 12, 1:18 pm, Julian  wrote:   
   >>>>> On 12/08/2010 17:42, DT wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> Well, here's a question for you, or Jigme, or whoever.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> If somebody were to ask me for a brief synopsis of the New Testament,   
   >>>>>> or   
   >>>>>> of Jesus' teachings, I'd tell 'em to read Matthew 5-7, the Sermon on   
   >>>>>> the   
   >>>>>> Mount.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> Is there a comparable portion of the Lotus Sutra that might hit all   
   >>>>>> the   
   >>>>>> high points,   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> No (imo)   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> or do I need to just start at the beginning and go through   
   >>>>>> all 28 chapters?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> You might as well, but you can skip nearly half of each chapter   
   >>>>> since often the prose is repeated as verse.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> ps.   
   >>>>> Nichiren followed the T'ien-t'ai line in emphasising   
   >>>>> ch. 2  Expedient Means   
   >>>>> and, particularly, the "jewel"   
   >>>>> ch.16 The Life Span of the Tathāgata   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Expedient means? That's ALL it's about.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I'll save you the trouble of reading it. Here's the Cliff Notes   
   >>>> version, which I call "Lotus in a Nutshell":   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The Buddha admits that everything he's told us up to now has been just   
   >>>> a pack of lies. Now he's decided to come clean.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> But first, he makes a bunch of excuses for all those lies. It seems he   
   >>>> did it for our own good because we were too childish to understand for   
   >>>> real, and he just wanted to save our sorry asses.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> So the real truth is: I wasn't really a man who became enlightened.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I was an immortal god all along, deserving of your worship. I'm only   
   >>>> telling you this now because you're so much better than all those   
   >>>> other uncomprehending dolts.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> A beautiful story with a special appeal to triumphalist egotists.   
   >>>   
   >>> Wow, I wasn't expecting that "analysis" from Jigme...   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> There are many others just as scathing in their opinions.   This is what   
   >> Richard Hayes, author of "land of no buddha" and others, had to say about   
   >> it when he used to post here.   
   >>   
   >> Buddha Baby wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> Seeing that you have touched upon the subject of Buddhist traditions, I   
   >>> would like to   
   >>> take this opportunity to ask you to clarify your position on a related   
   >>> matter. The   
   >>> Saddharmapundarika Sutra a.k.a. the Lotus Sutra.   
   >>   
   >> My position in a nutshell is that I quite like the Lotus Sutra for its   
   >> poetry, its imagery, its imaginative parables, its irony and its humour.   
   >> I think it is a brilliant piece of literature. As a long-time Zen   
   >> practitioner, I also happen to love it as liturgy. The chapter on   
   >> Avalokiteshvara moves me deeply. (I have said all these things many   
   >> times.)   
   >>   
   >> Like Chih-I, I think the Sad-dahrma-pundarika is a text that a person   
   >> should study only after having a mastery of the nikaayas, the   
   >> praj~naa-paaramitaa and some of the other suutras such as the   
   >> Vimalakiirti-nirdes'a. It is only when one has a firm foundation in the   
   >> full dharma tradition that the subtlety of the text becomes apparent.   
   >> Therefore, I think it is lamentable when people focus exclusively, or   
   >> even primarily, on the Lotus Sutra and turn it into a polemic text   
   >> trivializing other forms of Buddhism and suggesting that they offer   
   >> lesser goals, lower aspirations and diminished attainments. Used as a   
   >> pretext for triumphalism, as SOME (but by no means all) followers of   
   >> Nichiren use it, the Lotus Sutra becomes a platform for a kind of   
   >> bigotry that I find completely contrary to the spirit of the sad-dharma.   
   >> Studied properly and in the proper sequence of study, as the   
   >> T'ien-t'ai/Tendai traditions studied it, it is a beautiful text with a   
   >> sublime message. It saddens me deeply to see it abused, both by some of   
   >> its more ignorant and fanatical admirers (whose abuse is obviously   
   >> unintentional but nevertheless quite damaging) and by its various   
   >> detractors.   
   >>   
   >> Mubul   
   >> (Richard P. Hayes)   
   >>   
   >> And here is another;   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Doc Mark Rogow wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>        The Lotus Sutra teaches that icchantikas can be saved by virtue   
   >>> of the   
   >>> Sutra but nowhere does it teach that they don't exist.   
   >>   
   >> If you have the time to give me a precise reference, I would appreciate   
   >> getting it. You can cite the page number of any English translation of   
   >> the Lotus Sutra. I have five of them. The reference works I have give   
   >> many references to passages in the Lankavatara but not to any in the   
   >> Lotus where the term is used.   
   >>   
   >> I cannot recall seeing a discussion of icchantikas in the Lotus Sutra. I   
   >> am, of course, quite familiar with the concept as it comes up in the   
   >> Lankavatara. There is it said that for every icchantika there is a   
   >> bodhisattva dedicated to bringing the icchantika to full realization of   
   >> the Dharma. This is quite a wonderful image, like that of the   
   >> irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Part of the emotional   
   >> impact of the image, of course, is that bodisattvas are so altruistic   
   >> that they will forever postpone their own entry into final nirvana. They   
   >> will remain eternally in samsara, if need be, in order to work for the   
   >> welfare of others. They will forgo the greatest good so that others can   
   >> have it. That's a very beautiful image of nobility of spirit.   
   >>   
   >>> I know quite a few personally.   
   >>   
   >> It is said that only an icchantika can recognize another icchantika. One   
   >> of their characteristics is that they flock together.   
   >>   
   >>>                                                                What   
   >>> is the cause for attaining buddhahood in the latter day? Only chanting   
   >>> Namu   
   >>> myoho renge kyo with faith in the Lotus Sutra(Eternal Buddha).   
   >>   
   >>>          It  is in no way the fault of the Buddha if one refuses to   
   >>> believe the   
   >>> Lotus Sutra and to attain Buddhahood quickly.   
   >>   
   >> Let me speak to you as one poet to another, Mark. As a poet, I quite   
   >> like the Lotus Sutra. I think of it as being like the golden crown   
   >> sitting on the head of a splendid and dignified King. The body of that   
   >> monarch is the Body of Dharma, the corpus of all Buddhist texts of all   
      
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