XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen   
   XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy   
   From: daletx@gnusguy.com   
      
   Julian wrote:   
   > On 13/08/2010 16:27, DT wrote:   
   >> Evelyn wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> "Allen Barker"  wrote in message   
   >>> news:i42v3s$i2t$1@news.eternal-september.org...   
   >>>> On 08/12/2010 08:26 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:   
   >>>>> On Aug 12, 1:18 pm, Julian wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 12/08/2010 17:42, DT wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Well, here's a question for you, or Jigme, or whoever.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> If somebody were to ask me for a brief synopsis of the New   
   >>>>>>> Testament, or   
   >>>>>>> of Jesus' teachings, I'd tell 'em to read Matthew 5-7, the Sermon   
   >>>>>>> on the   
   >>>>>>> Mount.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Is there a comparable portion of the Lotus Sutra that might hit   
   >>>>>>> all the   
   >>>>>>> high points,   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> No (imo)   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> or do I need to just start at the beginning and go through   
   >>>>>>> all 28 chapters?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> You might as well, but you can skip nearly half of each chapter   
   >>>>>> since often the prose is repeated as verse.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> ps.   
   >>>>>> Nichiren followed the T'ien-t'ai line in emphasising   
   >>>>>> ch. 2 Expedient Means   
   >>>>>> and, particularly, the "jewel"   
   >>>>>> ch.16 The Life Span of the Tathāgata   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Expedient means? That's ALL it's about.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> I'll save you the trouble of reading it. Here's the Cliff Notes   
   >>>>> version, which I call "Lotus in a Nutshell":   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> The Buddha admits that everything he's told us up to now has been just   
   >>>>> a pack of lies. Now he's decided to come clean.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> But first, he makes a bunch of excuses for all those lies. It seems he   
   >>>>> did it for our own good because we were too childish to understand for   
   >>>>> real, and he just wanted to save our sorry asses.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> So the real truth is: I wasn't really a man who became enlightened.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> I was an immortal god all along, deserving of your worship. I'm only   
   >>>>> telling you this now because you're so much better than all those   
   >>>>> other uncomprehending dolts.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> A beautiful story with a special appeal to triumphalist egotists.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Wow, I wasn't expecting that "analysis" from Jigme...   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> There are many others just as scathing in their opinions. This is what   
   >>> Richard Hayes, author of "land of no buddha" and others, had to say   
   >>> about it when he used to post here.   
   >>>   
   >>> Buddha Baby wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> Seeing that you have touched upon the subject of Buddhist traditions,   
   >>>> I would like to   
   >>>> take this opportunity to ask you to clarify your position on a   
   >>>> related matter. The   
   >>>> Saddharmapundarika Sutra a.k.a. the Lotus Sutra.   
   >>>   
   >>> My position in a nutshell is that I quite like the Lotus Sutra for its   
   >>> poetry, its imagery, its imaginative parables, its irony and its humour.   
   >>> I think it is a brilliant piece of literature. As a long-time Zen   
   >>> practitioner, I also happen to love it as liturgy. The chapter on   
   >>> Avalokiteshvara moves me deeply. (I have said all these things many   
   >>> times.)   
   >>>   
   >>> Like Chih-I, I think the Sad-dahrma-pundarika is a text that a person   
   >>> should study only after having a mastery of the nikaayas, the   
   >>> praj~naa-paaramitaa and some of the other suutras such as the   
   >>> Vimalakiirti-nirdes'a. It is only when one has a firm foundation in the   
   >>> full dharma tradition that the subtlety of the text becomes apparent.   
   >>> Therefore, I think it is lamentable when people focus exclusively, or   
   >>> even primarily, on the Lotus Sutra and turn it into a polemic text   
   >>> trivializing other forms of Buddhism and suggesting that they offer   
   >>> lesser goals, lower aspirations and diminished attainments. Used as a   
   >>> pretext for triumphalism, as SOME (but by no means all) followers of   
   >>> Nichiren use it, the Lotus Sutra becomes a platform for a kind of   
   >>> bigotry that I find completely contrary to the spirit of the sad-dharma.   
   >>> Studied properly and in the proper sequence of study, as the   
   >>> T'ien-t'ai/Tendai traditions studied it, it is a beautiful text with a   
   >>> sublime message. It saddens me deeply to see it abused, both by some of   
   >>> its more ignorant and fanatical admirers (whose abuse is obviously   
   >>> unintentional but nevertheless quite damaging) and by its various   
   >>> detractors.   
   >>>   
   >>> Mubul   
   >>> (Richard P. Hayes)   
   >>>   
   >>> And here is another;   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> Doc Mark Rogow wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> The Lotus Sutra teaches that icchantikas can be saved by virtue of the   
   >>>> Sutra but nowhere does it teach that they don't exist.   
   >>>   
   >>> If you have the time to give me a precise reference, I would appreciate   
   >>> getting it. You can cite the page number of any English translation of   
   >>> the Lotus Sutra. I have five of them. The reference works I have give   
   >>> many references to passages in the Lankavatara but not to any in the   
   >>> Lotus where the term is used.   
   >>>   
   >>> I cannot recall seeing a discussion of icchantikas in the Lotus Sutra. I   
   >>> am, of course, quite familiar with the concept as it comes up in the   
   >>> Lankavatara. There is it said that for every icchantika there is a   
   >>> bodhisattva dedicated to bringing the icchantika to full realization of   
   >>> the Dharma. This is quite a wonderful image, like that of the   
   >>> irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Part of the emotional   
   >>> impact of the image, of course, is that bodisattvas are so altruistic   
   >>> that they will forever postpone their own entry into final nirvana. They   
   >>> will remain eternally in samsara, if need be, in order to work for the   
   >>> welfare of others. They will forgo the greatest good so that others can   
   >>> have it. That's a very beautiful image of nobility of spirit.   
   >>>   
   >>>> I know quite a few personally.   
   >>>   
   >>> It is said that only an icchantika can recognize another icchantika. One   
   >>> of their characteristics is that they flock together.   
   >>>   
   >>>> What   
   >>>> is the cause for attaining buddhahood in the latter day? Only   
   >>>> chanting Namu   
   >>>> myoho renge kyo with faith in the Lotus Sutra(Eternal Buddha).   
   >>>   
   >>>> It is in no way the fault of the Buddha if one refuses to believe the   
   >>>> Lotus Sutra and to attain Buddhahood quickly.   
   >>>   
   >>> Let me speak to you as one poet to another, Mark. As a poet, I quite   
   >>> like the Lotus Sutra. I think of it as being like the golden crown   
   >>> sitting on the head of a splendid and dignified King. The body of that   
   >>> monarch is the Body of Dharma, the corpus of all Buddhist texts of all   
   >>> the vehicles. Flowing through the body of that great monarch is the   
   >>> royal lifeblood of Dependent Origination, also known as Emptiness. It is   
   >>> that royal blood that runs in the veins of every great King worthy of   
   >>> the name. And sitting atop that splendid and radiant monarch is a sutra   
   >>> that inspires the imagination, fires the emotions, gladdens the heart   
      
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