XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com
"DT" wrote in message
news:i442d10713@news4.newsguy.com...
> Evelyn wrote:
>>
>> "DT" wrote in message
>> news:i43o8j11s8l@news1.newsguy.com...
>>> Evelyn wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Allen Barker" wrote in message
>>>> news:i42v3s$i2t$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> On 08/12/2010 08:26 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>>>>>> On Aug 12, 1:18 pm, Julian wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 17:42, DT wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, here's a question for you, or Jigme, or whoever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If somebody were to ask me for a brief synopsis of the New
>>>>>>>> Testament, or
>>>>>>>> of Jesus' teachings, I'd tell 'em to read Matthew 5-7, the Sermon
>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>> Mount.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there a comparable portion of the Lotus Sutra that might hit all
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> high points,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No (imo)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> or do I need to just start at the beginning and go through
>>>>>>>> all 28 chapters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might as well, but you can skip nearly half of each chapter
>>>>>>> since often the prose is repeated as verse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ps.
>>>>>>> Nichiren followed the T'ien-t'ai line in emphasising
>>>>>>> ch. 2 Expedient Means
>>>>>>> and, particularly, the "jewel"
>>>>>>> ch.16 The Life Span of the Tathāgata
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Expedient means? That's ALL it's about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll save you the trouble of reading it. Here's the Cliff Notes
>>>>>> version, which I call "Lotus in a Nutshell":
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Buddha admits that everything he's told us up to now has been
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> a pack of lies. Now he's decided to come clean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But first, he makes a bunch of excuses for all those lies. It seems
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> did it for our own good because we were too childish to understand
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> real, and he just wanted to save our sorry asses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the real truth is: I wasn't really a man who became enlightened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was an immortal god all along, deserving of your worship. I'm only
>>>>>> telling you this now because you're so much better than all those
>>>>>> other uncomprehending dolts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A beautiful story with a special appeal to triumphalist egotists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I wasn't expecting that "analysis" from Jigme...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are many others just as scathing in their opinions. This is
>>>> what Richard Hayes, author of "land of no buddha" and others, had to
>>>> say about it when he used to post here.
>>>>
>>>> Buddha Baby wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Seeing that you have touched upon the subject of Buddhist traditions,
>>>>> I would like to
>>>>> take this opportunity to ask you to clarify your position on a related
>>>>> matter. The
>>>>> Saddharmapundarika Sutra a.k.a. the Lotus Sutra.
>>>>
>>>> My position in a nutshell is that I quite like the Lotus Sutra for its
>>>> poetry, its imagery, its imaginative parables, its irony and its
>>>> humour.
>>>> I think it is a brilliant piece of literature. As a long-time Zen
>>>> practitioner, I also happen to love it as liturgy. The chapter on
>>>> Avalokiteshvara moves me deeply. (I have said all these things many
>>>> times.)
>>>>
>>>> Like Chih-I, I think the Sad-dahrma-pundarika is a text that a person
>>>> should study only after having a mastery of the nikaayas, the
>>>> praj~naa-paaramitaa and some of the other suutras such as the
>>>> Vimalakiirti-nirdes'a. It is only when one has a firm foundation in the
>>>> full dharma tradition that the subtlety of the text becomes apparent.
>>>> Therefore, I think it is lamentable when people focus exclusively, or
>>>> even primarily, on the Lotus Sutra and turn it into a polemic text
>>>> trivializing other forms of Buddhism and suggesting that they offer
>>>> lesser goals, lower aspirations and diminished attainments. Used as a
>>>> pretext for triumphalism, as SOME (but by no means all) followers of
>>>> Nichiren use it, the Lotus Sutra becomes a platform for a kind of
>>>> bigotry that I find completely contrary to the spirit of the
>>>> sad-dharma.
>>>> Studied properly and in the proper sequence of study, as the
>>>> T'ien-t'ai/Tendai traditions studied it, it is a beautiful text with a
>>>> sublime message. It saddens me deeply to see it abused, both by some of
>>>> its more ignorant and fanatical admirers (whose abuse is obviously
>>>> unintentional but nevertheless quite damaging) and by its various
>>>> detractors.
>>>>
>>>> Mubul
>>>> (Richard P. Hayes)
>>>>
>>>> And here is another;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doc Mark Rogow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Lotus Sutra teaches that icchantikas can be saved by virtue
>>>>> of the
>>>>> Sutra but nowhere does it teach that they don't exist.
>>>>
>>>> If you have the time to give me a precise reference, I would appreciate
>>>> getting it. You can cite the page number of any English translation of
>>>> the Lotus Sutra. I have five of them. The reference works I have give
>>>> many references to passages in the Lankavatara but not to any in the
>>>> Lotus where the term is used.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot recall seeing a discussion of icchantikas in the Lotus Sutra.
>>>> I
>>>> am, of course, quite familiar with the concept as it comes up in the
>>>> Lankavatara. There is it said that for every icchantika there is a
>>>> bodhisattva dedicated to bringing the icchantika to full realization of
>>>> the Dharma. This is quite a wonderful image, like that of the
>>>> irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Part of the emotional
>>>> impact of the image, of course, is that bodisattvas are so altruistic
>>>> that they will forever postpone their own entry into final nirvana.
>>>> They
>>>> will remain eternally in samsara, if need be, in order to work for the
>>>> welfare of others. They will forgo the greatest good so that others can
>>>> have it. That's a very beautiful image of nobility of spirit.
>>>>
>>>>> I know quite a few personally.
>>>>
>>>> It is said that only an icchantika can recognize another icchantika.
>>>> One
>>>> of their characteristics is that they flock together.
>>>>
>>>>> What
>>>>> is the cause for attaining buddhahood in the latter day? Only chanting
>>>>> Namu
>>>>> myoho renge kyo with faith in the Lotus Sutra(Eternal Buddha).
>>>>
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