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XPost: talk.religion.buddhism, alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen
XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: evelyn.ruut@gmail.com
"Jigme Dorje" wrote in message
news:866e82ac-b7b1-4de6-8856-e465716be405@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 13, 3:51 pm, "Evelyn" wrote:
>> "DT" wrote in message
>>
>> news:i442d10713@news4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> > Evelyn wrote:
>>
>> >> "DT" wrote in message
>> >>news:i43o8j11s8l@news1.newsguy.com...
>> >>> Evelyn wrote:
>>
>> >>>> "Allen Barker" wrote in message
>> >>>>news:i42v3s$i2t$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >>>>> On 08/12/2010 08:26 PM, Jigme Dorje wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Aug 12, 1:18 pm, Julian wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 12/08/2010 17:42, DT wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>> Well, here's a question for you, or Jigme, or whoever.
>>
>> >>>>>>>> If somebody were to ask me for a brief synopsis of the New
>> >>>>>>>> Testament, or
>> >>>>>>>> of Jesus' teachings, I'd tell 'em to read Matthew 5-7, the
>> >>>>>>>> Sermon
>> >>>>>>>> on the
>> >>>>>>>> Mount.
>>
>> >>>>>>>> Is there a comparable portion of the Lotus Sutra that might hit
>> >>>>>>>> all
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> high points,
>>
>> >>>>>>> No (imo)
>>
>> >>>>>>>> or do I need to just start at the beginning and go through
>> >>>>>>>> all 28 chapters?
>>
>> >>>>>>> You might as well, but you can skip nearly half of each chapter
>> >>>>>>> since often the prose is repeated as verse.
>>
>> >>>>>>> ps.
>> >>>>>>> Nichiren followed the T'ien-t'ai line in emphasising
>> >>>>>>> ch. 2 Expedient Means
>> >>>>>>> and, particularly, the "jewel"
>> >>>>>>> ch.16 The Life Span of the Tathāgata
>>
>> >>>>>> Expedient means? That's ALL it's about.
>>
>> >>>>>> I'll save you the trouble of reading it. Here's the Cliff Notes
>> >>>>>> version, which I call "Lotus in a Nutshell":
>>
>> >>>>>> The Buddha admits that everything he's told us up to now has been
>> >>>>>> just
>> >>>>>> a pack of lies. Now he's decided to come clean.
>>
>> >>>>>> But first, he makes a bunch of excuses for all those lies. It
>> >>>>>> seems
>> >>>>>> he
>> >>>>>> did it for our own good because we were too childish to understand
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> real, and he just wanted to save our sorry asses.
>>
>> >>>>>> So the real truth is: I wasn't really a man who became
>> >>>>>> enlightened.
>>
>> >>>>>> I was an immortal god all along, deserving of your worship. I'm
>> >>>>>> only
>> >>>>>> telling you this now because you're so much better than all those
>> >>>>>> other uncomprehending dolts.
>>
>> >>>>>> A beautiful story with a special appeal to triumphalist egotists.
>>
>> >>>>> Wow, I wasn't expecting that "analysis" from Jigme...
>>
>> >>>> There are many others just as scathing in their opinions. This is
>> >>>> what Richard Hayes, author of "land of no buddha" and others, had to
>> >>>> say about it when he used to post here.
>>
>> >>>> Buddha Baby wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> Seeing that you have touched upon the subject of Buddhist
>> >>>>> traditions,
>> >>>>> I would like to
>> >>>>> take this opportunity to ask you to clarify your position on a
>> >>>>> related
>> >>>>> matter. The
>> >>>>> Saddharmapundarika Sutra a.k.a. the Lotus Sutra.
>>
>> >>>> My position in a nutshell is that I quite like the Lotus Sutra for
>> >>>> its
>> >>>> poetry, its imagery, its imaginative parables, its irony and its
>> >>>> humour.
>> >>>> I think it is a brilliant piece of literature. As a long-time Zen
>> >>>> practitioner, I also happen to love it as liturgy. The chapter on
>> >>>> Avalokiteshvara moves me deeply. (I have said all these things many
>> >>>> times.)
>>
>> >>>> Like Chih-I, I think the Sad-dahrma-pundarika is a text that a
>> >>>> person
>> >>>> should study only after having a mastery of the nikaayas, the
>> >>>> praj~naa-paaramitaa and some of the other suutras such as the
>> >>>> Vimalakiirti-nirdes'a. It is only when one has a firm foundation in
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> full dharma tradition that the subtlety of the text becomes
>> >>>> apparent.
>> >>>> Therefore, I think it is lamentable when people focus exclusively,
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> even primarily, on the Lotus Sutra and turn it into a polemic text
>> >>>> trivializing other forms of Buddhism and suggesting that they offer
>> >>>> lesser goals, lower aspirations and diminished attainments. Used as
>> >>>> a
>> >>>> pretext for triumphalism, as SOME (but by no means all) followers of
>> >>>> Nichiren use it, the Lotus Sutra becomes a platform for a kind of
>> >>>> bigotry that I find completely contrary to the spirit of the
>> >>>> sad-dharma.
>> >>>> Studied properly and in the proper sequence of study, as the
>> >>>> T'ien-t'ai/Tendai traditions studied it, it is a beautiful text with
>> >>>> a
>> >>>> sublime message. It saddens me deeply to see it abused, both by some
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> its more ignorant and fanatical admirers (whose abuse is obviously
>> >>>> unintentional but nevertheless quite damaging) and by its various
>> >>>> detractors.
>>
>> >>>> Mubul
>> >>>> (Richard P. Hayes)
>>
>> >>>> And here is another;
>>
>> >>>> Doc Mark Rogow wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> The Lotus Sutra teaches that icchantikas can be saved by
>> >>>>> virtue
>> >>>>> of the
>> >>>>> Sutra but nowhere does it teach that they don't exist.
>>
>> >>>> If you have the time to give me a precise reference, I would
>> >>>> appreciate
>> >>>> getting it. You can cite the page number of any English translation
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> the Lotus Sutra. I have five of them. The reference works I have
>> >>>> give
>> >>>> many references to passages in the Lankavatara but not to any in the
>> >>>> Lotus where the term is used.
>>
>> >>>> I cannot recall seeing a discussion of icchantikas in the Lotus
>> >>>> Sutra.
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> am, of course, quite familiar with the concept as it comes up in the
>> >>>> Lankavatara. There is it said that for every icchantika there is a
>> >>>> bodhisattva dedicated to bringing the icchantika to full realization
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> the Dharma. This is quite a wonderful image, like that of the
>> >>>> irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Part of the
>> >>>> emotional
>> >>>> impact of the image, of course, is that bodisattvas are so
>> >>>> altruistic
>> >>>> that they will forever postpone their own entry into final nirvana.
>> >>>> They
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