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   From: cdumont@telusplanet.net   
      
   "old man joe"  wrote in message   
   news:jn5pm4tlojtum2keqpplemhjg7laiuf0l5@4ax.com...   
   > some might ask the question... ' why witness if predestinated ' ?   
   >   
   > good question.   
   >   
   > in Eph 1 it is written :   
   >   
   > 4 " just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we   
   > should be   
   > holy and without blame before Him in love,   
   >   
   > 5   having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,   
   > according   
   > to the good pleasure of His will,   
   >   
   > 6   to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us   
   > accepted in the   
   > Beloved. "   
   >   
   > in the above verses it is apparent that God does the choosing and that He   
   > did so   
   > before He created the world.  all men, being found in Adam,  die, ( 1 Cor.   
   > 15:22 )   
   > and remain so from cradle to grave, and are ' of their father the devil,   
   > and want to   
   > do the desires of their father '   Jo.8:44   
   >   
   > mankind is hopelessly lost and is said to be :   
   > " having no hope and without God in the world."  Eph. 2:12   
   >   
   > he has no righteousness in and of himself; he neither seeks for God nor   
   > does he   
   > understand the gospel being preached to him until after God saves him.   
   > Jn. 3:3;   
   > Acts 13:48;  2 Cor. 4:4   
   >   
   > " There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands;   
   > There is none   
   > who seeks after God. "  Ro. 3:10,11   
   >   
   > he is said to be spiritually dead and beyond all self help as far as his   
   > relationship to God is concerned :   
   >   
   > 1   "... you who were dead in trespasses and sins,   
   >   
   > 2   in which you once walked according to the course of this world,   
   > according to the   
   > prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of   
   > disobedience,   
   >   
   > 3   among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our   
   > flesh,   
   > fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature   
   > children of   
   > wrath. "   Eph. 2:1-3 ff   
   >   
   > since man is the absolute slave of sin... since he is spiritually dead in   
   > trespasses   
   > and sins... since he does not seek for God, God, knowing this as He knows   
   > all things,   
   > chooses out of His mercy, love and grace, some unto eternal life.   
   >   
   > with that choosing,  God calls His elect ones to Himself through the   
   > gospel... after   
   > all, the gospel is " the power of God unto salvation "  Ro. 1:16   
   >   
   > He does the calling of these chosen ones through the gospel :   
   >   
   > " God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by   
   > the Spirit   
   > and belief in the truth,  to which He called you by our gospel, for the   
   > obtaining of   
   > the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " 2 Thes. 2:13,14   
   >   
   > another well suited example of this great calling of the ones chosen by   
   > God before   
   > the foundation of the world, is seen in the Book of Acts,  where Paul and   
   > Barnabas   
   > were preaching the gospel to a crowd of Jews and Gentiles :   
   >   
   > " Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word   
   > of the   
   > Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed. "  Acts   
   > 13:48   
   >   
   > why witness if predestinated ?  simply because the preaching of Gods Word   
   > is the   
   > means by which He calls His chosen ones out of the world and unto   
   > Himself... " to   
   > which He called you by our gospel. "  2 Thes. 2:14   
   >   
   >  when this gospel is tainted, when it is published that the will of man   
   > must invoke   
   > God to save, this gospel ceases to be the power of God and therefore does   
   > not save.   
   > this is because the will of man has absolutely nothing to do with God's   
   > choice of   
   > him.  human desperation nor human choices are not involved in salvation at   
   > all.   
   > ( Ro. 8:8 )   
   >   
   >  God has not designed His gospel to impart life by the will of the flesh   
   > ( Jn.   
   > 1:12,13 )  since this gives some of the glory for the doing to fleshly man   
   > as he   
   > supposes he co-redeems himself.  all of the glory for the doing goes to   
   > God in Christ   
   > alone... the evidence of this is that the Holy Spirit witnesses of Christ   
   > ( Jn. 15:26 ) not man,  and when man brags of the " decision for Christ "   
   > he's made,   
   > we know the power of God in the gospel of God which saves has passed him   
   > by.   
      
     The Scriptures have three levels, and you don't even understand the first   
   level, you assumme your an elect and you claim even if a person repents he's   
   still going to hell, that makes you a fool acording to Jesus, a fool is a   
   person that tells another person he's going to hell no matter what, and   
   Jesus said you are in danger of hell fire, you may not be forgiven, you will   
   not if you don't repent.   
     Take my word for it you are not an elect, elects know all three levels.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)