From: madlove@arkham.dc   
      
   One Bit Shy wrote:   
   > In the Buffyverse the vampire certainly is different than the original   
   > human, but in certain limited ways.  The main thing they lose (aside from a   
   > heartbeat and a taste for food) is their moral compass (or empathy or   
   > whatever it is you wish to attribute to the soul) - assuming they had a   
   > moral compass to begin with.  It is implied that Darla was a crummy human   
   > when first alive.   
      
   Yes, I got the idea that she was pretty much gutter trash when she was a   
   hooker. There was no doubt that Angel was totally worthless from the start.   
      
   One Bit Shy wrote:   
   > Right at the beginning of the series, Giles did say that the human was gone   
   > once turned.  "You have to remember that when you see him, you're not   
   > looking at your friend.  You're looking at the thing that killed him."  In   
   > an important sense that's certainly true, but I think rather un-nuanced.   
   > Personally I treat that partly as the Watchers just being wrong, but mainly   
   > as a kind of stubborn denial by Watchers to ensure moral certitude in their   
   > crusade against the undead.   
      
   I was wondering if we can ever trust the Watchers 100%. I wouldn't be at   
   all   
   surprised to learn Giles had lied to Buf so she wouldn't feel bad about   
   staking   
   her friends. This is the same guy who drugged her so she couldn't use   
   her abilities.   
      
   And later in the series everyone was lying to her to get what they   
   wanted. Namely   
   Spike gone because they didn't trust him. Recall her telling them that   
   she had heard   
   enough? This was after she discovered that Robin and Giles had conspired   
   together.   
      
   One Bit Shy wrote:   
   > As for Buffy, she of course spouts the Watcher party line early on.  An   
   > interesting example is in Dopplegangland (Season 3), is when she tells a   
   > worried Willow looking upon her vampire twin, "Willow, just remember, a   
   > vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was."  But Angel   
   > immediately interrupted with, "Well, actually...," before a glare from Buffy   
   > shut him down.  Clearly he was going to contradict Buffy's assertion.   
   > Presumably he would have some knowledge of the subject.   
   >   
   > OBS   
      
   I always took Buf's statement to be a lie to make Willow feel better   
   about her vamp   
   version being gay. Angel also warned Buf that Harmony would betray her   
   because "that was in her nature." That was the vamp part he was   
   referring to.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)