From: OBS@nomail.sorry   
      
   "Madlove"  wrote in message   
   news:m1acmm$u8m$1@speranza.aioe.org...   
   > Madlove wrote:   
   >> I know what you mean, but on at least two occasions they made it clear   
   >> that   
   >> vamps aren't the people they seem to be. Giles told Buffy that a vamp   
   >> isn't a person at all.   
   >>   
   >> And in the ep where goths planned to sacrifice Buffy in exchange for   
   >> being made into a vamp, she said "It doesn't work like that. You die and   
   >> something takes over your body. It looks like you, and it has your   
   >> memories   
   >> but it isn't you."   
   >   
   > David wrote:   
   >> I'm pretty sure that was kind of forgotten about.   
   >   
   > I agree, the writers forgot about vamp nature (among other things) as the   
   > series progressed.   
   >   
   > David wrote:   
   >> Except for being bloodthirsty again, Darla pretty much seemed to be the   
   >> same   
   >> person she was before Dru sired her. Just happier.   
   >   
   > But that's true of all the vamps. They're basically the same person,   
   > except for the   
   > vamp part. Recall "Conversations With Dead People" when Buff met the   
   > undead psych   
   > student?   
   >   
   > He was mostly the same as he was before he changed.   
      
   In the Buffyverse the vampire certainly is different than the original   
   human, but in certain limited ways.  The main thing they lose (aside froma   
   heartbeat and a taste for food) is their moral compass (or empathy or   
   whatever it is you wish to attribute to the soul) - assuming they had a   
   moral compass to begin with.  It is implied that Darla was a crummy human   
   when first alive.  Angel would periodically refer to how worthless he was as   
   a human and even attribute the worst of himself to his human side.  (Though,   
   to be fair, Angel was always conflicted bout his human vs. vampire natures,   
   often treating himself as a split personality, unable to perceive of himself   
   as a unified whole.)   
      
   The main thing they gain (aside from superhuman strength and resistance to   
   magic) is bloodlust.  In the Pylea episodes at the end of Season 2 of Angel,   
   the vampire is reduced to an animal driven purely by that bloodlust.  It is   
   never entirely clear that vampires are inherently evil in themselves.  After   
   all, Angel and Spike are still vampires when they get their souls back.   
      
   So there are important differences, but vampires still remain quite   
   connected to their human roots in many ways from personality to interests.   
   (Spike was a bloody awful poet both before and after being bit.)  The   
   classic expression of this is from Darla in Season 1 of Angel.  "What we   
   once were informs all that we have become.  The same love will infect our   
   hearts - even if they no longer beat.  Simple death won't change that."   
      
   Right at the beginning of the series, Giles did say that the human was gone   
   once turned.  "You have to remember that when you see him, you're not   
   looking at your friend.  You're looking at the thing that killed him."  In   
   an important sense that's certainly true, but I think rather un-nuanced.   
   Personally I treat that partly as the Watchers just being wrong, but mainly   
   as a kind of stubborn denial by Watchers to ensure moral certitude in their   
   crusade against the undead.   
      
   As for Buffy, she of course spouts the Watcher party line early on.  An   
   interesting example is in Dopplegangland (Season 3), is when she tells a   
   worried Willow looking upon her vampire twin, "Willow, just remember, a   
   vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was."  But Angel   
   immediately interrupted with, "Well, actually...," before a glare from Buffy   
   shut him down.  Clearly he was going to contradict Buffy's assertion.   
   Presumably he would have some knowledge of the subject.   
      
   I think the notion of the relationship between the vampire and his human   
   source evolves through the course of the two series, but personally I don't   
   see contradiction so much as growing understanding.  It starts out simple   
   black and white and becomes more sophisticated - ironically less clear as   
   understanding grows.  I think that pretty much has to happen in any story   
   that revolves around love between slayer and vampire.   
      
   OBS   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)