From: liam@valentijn.nu
Op 6-8-2018 om 00:49 schreef Madlove:
> On 08/03/2018 08:49 AM, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>> Op 2-8-2018 om 23:32 schreef Madlove:
>>> Madlove wrote:
>>>> 2. vamp becomes a human: girl is cloned from a vamp (which is a
>>>> separate being) so should not have it's memories.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/31/2018 03:18 PM, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>>>> How do you figure that was /cloning/?
>>>
>>> You're probably correct. I *thot* she was brought back via science but
>>> a spell makes much more sense. Especially since she still had syphilis
>>> injuries!
>>
>> It looked like they took the magic way, not a scientific one.
>>
>>>
>>>> I figure actual Darla was brought back from being a dusted vampire into
>>>> her original human form, even including that syphilis she suffered from
>>>> before the Master sired her the first time..
>>>>
>>>> And that vampire Darla already had all those memories and personality
>>>> etc. Why would she have lost all that from being dead?
>>>> When Buffy was brought back, she still had all her memories also.
>>>
>>> If she was returned via a spell then shouldn't her memories end (and
>>> begin again) at the moment she was turned into a vamp? IE, she dies
>>> and the vamp takes over the body.
>>>
>>> She's brought back and she continues from right before she died.
>>>
>>> Your thoughts on this??? :-D
>
>
>> Uhm... those memories are part of that /body/. Human gets vamped, but
>> that body stays mostly intact and /continues/ accumulating memories.
>> In Darla's case that body, that kept on accumulating memories, was
>> dusted and that body, albeit in human non-vampiric mode, was brought
>> back, including all those memories from the vampire time.
>
> That sounds about right: she had her own memories plus the vamp's memories
> and she thought she would be powerful again, but she would not be that
> person.
>
> If she became a vamp again then she would lose her human conscience when
> the monster spirit took over. So the only explanation I can think of is
> she was confusing her human memories with the vamp's memories.
I think they are /one/ set of memories.
>
> IE, she believed she'd be that sired person when in fact her human
> conscience
> would no longer exist.
When vamped the conscience goes.
>
>> I think that when someone is vamped, the soul (the conscience) is gone
>> and the demon takes place of /the soul/, but it thinks and feels like
>> there is a continuity from the mere human days. The demon part has no
>> personality or memories of its own and thinks and believes it's the
>> original human, but turned into a vampire.
>
> That is my understanding too.
>
>> Now, what really is interesting, in the case of Angel and Spike, who
>> retained vampire form when they got a soul back, and in the case of
>> Darla, who as a human got a soul back, is that they indeed got /their
>> own souls/ back, and not some random soul/conscience.
>
> A good point! I never thought of that angle - Spike/Angel should have
> lost their vampire parts.
Why? They still were vampires.
>
>> In each case you never hear that the /returned/ soul had their own
>> separate set of memories from the time they were apart from that
>> original body! Either the soul does not contain its own memories, or
>> those memories are erased. I think the first is the case!
>>
>> When Buffy was brought back, I think it was a case of her entire
>> mind/spirit being brought back to her restored body and her spirit did
>> retain the memories of the afterlife, heaven in her case, where it
>> remained after her death at the end of season 5.
>
> My question is, Buffy was in "heaven" but where did Darla, Angel, and
> Spike go to and return from? And did they have memories of their
> previous location like Buffy did? Did not seem like they did.
Yes! They did not receive memories from an afterlife with the returned
soul. That's why I think you should see the spirit and the soul as two
different things.
Spirit: as in 'the mind' with personality and memories.
Soul: as the conscience, the sense of right and wrong.
Demon: The entity that transforms and inhabits the human body that's
being vamped. Where does that demon come from? Was it in a hell
dimension at first and transported to our world and into the body of the
person being vamped? Or is it BORN inside the human being vamped?
Body: The human shell (duh!) that can contain all those things.
I think in Buffy's case her body was destroyed to such a degree it died.
It could no longer contain her 'spirit', her mind, resulting in her death.
In the case of the vampire, the mind (memory and personality) stays
behind and informs the demon what the human was, and the soul goes. But
the where is a good question, they never make that clear. The way they
talk about it, it's not destroyed but 'elsewhere' in such a state it can
be returned to the person it once belonged to. They speak about getting
the soul 'back'. But what if that's not some entity but more of an
abstract? The instinctive moral sense of right and wrong. Maybe the soul
/ conscience in the Buffyverse is not some immaterial object, but an
attribute?
And there are indications that very few vampires are completely without
'soul'. Think of that bookworm vampire that was easily destroyed by The
Jugde. That was only possible because there was some kind of soul of
parts of it left in him.
Funny thing: Spike could touch the Judge without harm, but even before
he got his soul back he acts as if he had one. Maybe someones passion
sometimes functions as a substitute soul? Spike's passion, his love for
Buffy, was so strong he actually even WANTED his soul back.
--
Wouter Valentijn
"We are the gift from our ancestors to the world that we borrow from
future generations, so, however, whatever, whichever, whenever, wherever
or whoever we are, we better be at our best."
http://www.prozaportal.j3v.net
http://www.essayportal.j3v.net
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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