XPost: alt.abortion, talk.politics.guns, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
From: me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net
"Attila" wrote in message
news:i991ejte90uji3olndqtvqv892pjqmudpt@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2024 13:09:24 -0500, "Scout"
> in alt.abortion
> with message-id wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>news:vbrudj1p6oln26jopatspbu09m209njbi2@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 09:34:18 -0500, "Scout"
>>> in alt.abortion
>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>news:5e9kdjl9cap0g5me61r1hsiharo16ptadn@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 10:52:04 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>>>news:udnhdjlj6rs7jehggpvbgmpdc9bc64up8b@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 12:32:04 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:7o2hdjtgfbm88lbebpsd9196be77d5j39r@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 12:44:13 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:mg9edjdt6thjia329fbkaemvnevtl2u72c@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:33:51 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>>>>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>news:sg04djd7rqq89ob3sh8ap36qn2f9abamfc@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:19:57 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Attila" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>news:1av1djl7ib5dv5dlqda6tunpr1bu2j9shc@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:54:18 -0500, "Scout"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.abortion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with message-id wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Chris Engstrom" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>news:FaHzO.87673$FUV7.55798@fx15.iad...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 4:15 AM, NoBody wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 17:05:06 -0700, Josh Rosenbluth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 2:11 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 2:03 PM, Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 12:35:03 -0600, Just Wondering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.abortion with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {snip}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that any of them even exists shows that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fetuses
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are unborn humans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one questions the species involved - simple DNA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. The issue is at what point an individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comes into existence. Historically it has never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to live birth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Historically you are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The laws involving a fetus and a born child prove you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After birth a child can inherit, be a tax deduction,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counted in a census, own property, be a citizen under
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proper laws, and need a passport, again under certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in certain locations among other things. None of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apply to a fetus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's your problem. You write of statutes. I speak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biological reality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no "biological reality" about whether a fetus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personhood, not "human life" or "unborn human" is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually you avoided the use of the term "baby" which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we've been discussing from the beginning. Why is that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because neither a developing fetus nor an embryo is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "baby."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neither
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one is a person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So then if you punch a pregnant woman in the belly and cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>miscarriage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then it's just simple assault and wasn't really murder?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The laws in effect under RvW took that into account. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laws defining the killing of a fetus as murder specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluded a woman getting an abortion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Which only proves my point.. otherwise why would an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>exclusionary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>condition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be necessary?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That point was address in the part you clipped:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Under your scenario the local laws could define that act as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> murder. It would be murder because it was legally defined
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as murder without addressing the "unborn human" issue. Local
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